Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Okay? So Sam's high PIM = Why he is justifiably not getting top 6 time for all the right reasons?

Sam Bennett - 59PIM

Let's compare: (Flames Only)

Matthew Tkachuk - 62
Mark Giordano - 63
Mikael Backlund - 78
Travis Hamonic - 79

Other Playes(Top 6 Role):

Evgeni Malkin - 87
Evander Kane - 82
Milan Lucic - 80 (arguably not a top 6 but is on EDM)
Ryan Johansen - 78
Max Domi - 73 (many want him on the flames)
Steven Stamkos - 72
Nick Ritchie - 72 (top 9 for arguments sake)
Alexander Radulov - 72
Corey Perry - 71
Dylan Larkin - 61

Players like Simmonds, Hornqvist, Brayden Schenn, MacKinnon, Trochek, Jamie Benn are literally 1-5 PIM's lower then Bennett.

Many others more suited for top 6-9 rolls then specifically top 6 always.
Regardless, PIM clearly should NOT imply no top 6 time. You've got bonafide ELITE superstars like Malkin and Stamkos putting up more PIM and still getting 1st line/1st PP time and putting up points.

I fail to see how PIM = No time should be given - It's clearly a closed minded evaluation that means very little to most GM's/Coaches/Teams

The stats you're looking at is flawed. It's not about the total PIM numbers. It's about the number of minor penalties which does not include 5 minute fighting majors and misconducts.

You also have to take into account the minutes they play and the opposition they play against. Fact is, Sam Bennett plays 14.40 minutes a game and took 27 minor penalties. That's more minor penalties than he had points while typically not playing against the opposition's top 6 forwards. His penalty count would likely go up with more minutes and against tougher match-ups.

Virtually every forward you listed (except Ritchie) not only plays more minutes, but has considerably more points than they have minor penalties as well. Some top line players might have more minors/per minute than Sam, but they're also producing considerably higher points which a coach can live with.

But with Bennett, he goes out there and doesn't produce and takes bad offensive zone penalties that hurts his team which leads him to getting rightfully benched or up in press box which has happened several times in the last couple seasons. If Sam Bennett can ever find a way too clean up his game and put up 40+ points a season, then I think he'll definitely be worth keeping around, but as of right now, he doesn't appear to be trending that way.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

A preseason game against an AHL-level team? You might as well have shown us sam's highlight video from the OHL lol.

And if I did, would the skill set have changed? I could peice together individual plays of Bennett doing all those things in the NHL (except one, because he's never had that role in the NHL) but it would accomplish nothing different.

Can I ask you an honest question: Do you think that Sam Bennett is better suited for Centre at the NHL level than Sean Monahan, for example?

I see those two as being fundamentally different players who are both suited for playing center at the NHL level. It's like asking if Logan Couture is better suited for center at the NHL level than Joe Pavelski. Or Jonathan Toews vs Steven Stamkos. It's a bad question.

Bennett is more of a Backlund type in my eyes and he shouldn't be judged on whether he is playing the game the same way as Monahan. Monahan has areas he struggles with and areas he excels at and so does Bennett. I do think that some of those areas overlap and that has negatively impacted Bennett's opportunties, but I don't think that's a long term issue so much as Gulutzan just being unable to balance lineups within a roster. Both can co-exist and both need to co-exist and co-succeed if we want to be an elite team. And perhaps that might mean some small scaling back for Monahan, perhaps it might not.

Good teams have more centers than they need. I think Tyler Johnson is one of the best and most underrated centers in the NHL and the Lightning had to play him on the wing because it worked out that way. Developing Sam as a 3rd line LW is not only short-sighted but wholely unambitious. He should be centering one of our top wingers (Gaudreau or Tkachuk) through thick or thin not because of where he was drafted but because of how much ability he possesses to make the most out of it. Ability he HAS shown in the NHL albeit in spurts.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No young player gets given bad players the way Bennett was. Go look at recent comparable top picks, and look at their linemates. What the Flames did with Bennett is not what good teams do with young promising players. Expecting young players to step in and carry linemates as bad as what Bennett got is unrealistic and damaging, and it's one of many reasons why this organization has sucked as long as it has. They make stupid decisions.

Fellow 2014 draft alum William Nylander was playing on the 4th line at times this season and he still put up his second straight 60 point season. Anyone who supports Sam Bennett unconditionally seems to bring up his "awful line mates," but for a 4th overall pick with over 240+ games of experience now, Sam Bennett has some responsibility to make his linemates better as well.

You can't just blame all of Sam Bennett's struggle's on his linemates. It's a complete cop out. There's been an opening on the wing position with Gaudreau and Monahan and he wasn't able to seize on the opportunity when he's been up there. Ferland was able to and that's why he was a fixture on the 1st line for most of the season.

You're also right though, this organization does make stupid decisions and in my opinion, we should've drafted Nylander or Ehlers instead because they're exactly what we're missing, speedy, skilled forwards with one shot scoring ability who can also create plays out of nothing. Also, drafting a plug like Hunter Smith over a local boy and future superstar in Brayden Point just makes me sad.

[EVERLAST]

Wow. 1000+ posts of why Bennett sucks. By the start of the season maybe the flames will have traded for a new guy to hate on because wow this horse isn’t just beaten to death it’s been put in the blender and purée is the button that got pushed.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Fellow 2014 draft alum William Nylander was playing on the 4th line at times this season and he still put up his second straight 60 point season. Anyone who supports Sam Bennett unconditionally seems to bring up his "awful line mates," but for a 4th overall pick with over 240+ games of experience now, Sam Bennett has some responsibility to make his linemates better as well.

You can't just blame all of Sam Bennett's struggle's on his linemates. It's a complete cop out. There's been an opening on the wing position with Gaudreau and Monahan and he wasn't able to seize on the opportunity when he's been up there. Ferland was able to and that's why he was a fixture on the 1st line for most of the season.

You cant make this #### up lol.
You're comparison is downright laughable. He's played 2 full seasons in the NHL and has been the primary RW on Matthew's line. Has Bennett had anyone on his line for an EXTENDED period of time as close to as skilled as Matthews or Marner let alone BOTH at times??? 10 games with a cold Johnny and an injured 4th quarter Sean isn't adequate for career levels of judgment.

Nylander - 2017/18

Even Strength Line Combinations
(Not 1 of these line combo's is as bad as sames HIGHEST)
76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4% BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

Which of these combo's would you consider a "4th line at times" because I'd take any one of these as a 2nd or 3rd line on the flames every day.

Even Strength Line Production - 32 PTS - This line combination itself carried half his points. Talk about given a real chance with a generational talent labeled player.
66.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM

Power Play Line Combinations
55.7%BROWN,CONNOR - MARLEAU,PATRICK - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM

Again in hindsight SURE at this point drafting either Nylander or Ehlers would be better today.
But that's not the argument here, the argument specifically ties to the development given to Sam since day 1 here in Calgary. For anyone to claim he's been given as much of a chance to succeed as almost EVERY comparable listed on here is asinine. The stat's show outside of his first stint with Backlund and Frolik in season 1 (where he did quite well as an 18 year old) he's been saddled with absolute garbage outside of Jankowski and a 46 year old Jagr when healthy.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Fellow 2014 draft alum William Nylander was playing on the 4th line at times this season and he still put up his second straight 60 point season. Anyone who supports Sam Bennett unconditionally seems to bring up his "awful line mates," but for a 4th overall pick with over 240+ games of experience now, Sam Bennett has some responsibility to make his linemates better as well.

You can't just blame all of Sam Bennett's struggle's on his linemates. It's a complete cop out. There's been an opening on the wing position with Gaudreau and Monahan and he wasn't able to seize on the opportunity when he's been up there. Ferland was able to and that's why he was a fixture on the 1st line for most of the season.

You're also right though, this organization does make stupid decisions and in my opinion, we should've drafted Nylander or Ehlers instead because they're exactly what we're missing, speedy, skilled forwards with one shot scoring ability who can also create plays out of nothing. Also, drafting a plug like Hunter Smith over a local boy and future superstar in Brayden Point just makes me sad.

It's not about "which line" he played on, it's about who he played with.

Nylander played on one of four lines.

Let's look at his linemates:

76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4% BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

Sorry, but all 4 of those combos are far better than any of the combos that Bennett played with on the "3rd" line. Bennett, on the 3rd line, was playing with players nowhere near as good as the players Nylander got.

Also, I'm not blaming Bennett's lack of production exclusively on his linemates. He's a young player who needs to be developed at the NHL level because the Flames rushed him into the NHL level. I think given his role, he performed adequately. If we want more though, he should have been given better linemates to play with, otherwise expecting Bennett to produce while not giving him the tools to produce with is unrealistic.

Bennett not being able to seize the spot with Monahan and Gaudreau was more Gulutzan than Bennett, in my opinion. He did seize it, then he was demoted for Chris Stewart - or played there so incredibly infrequently that asking him to perform in such spot duty is hard to ask for when you're dealing with a young developing player.

Ferland got to play through cold stretches on the 1st line and was given great stability in that position even when not producing - Bennett has never been given that opportunity under Gulutzan, yet was given that stability with Hartley (not specifically saying Hartley > Gully, because they both sucked). I'd also argue that Bennett is the better player when compared to Ferland without Gaudreau/Monahan on his line.

You say Bennett has the responsibility to make his linemates better after 240+ games - well, what was the expectation for 82 of those games in his 2nd season in the league, and 1st season as a rookie? You expected him to carry Brouwer and Chiasson? Sorry, not realistic. Not when Brouwer proved so effective at ruining his linemates that he couldn't get fired off the top line with Gaudreau and Monahan quick enough - and if Gaudreau/Monahan couldn't produce with Brouwer, expecting Bennett to is insanity.

Prior to Jankowski, all Bennett got to play with is castoffs. That's not setting someone up for success. That's not how good teams develop young players, mainly because good teams wouldn't employ the complete crud that the Flames have over the past two seasons in an attempt to ice an NHL roster.

(I see I got fata'd by royle, sorry buddy).

Originally Posted by Royle9

Again in hindsight SURE at this point drafting either Nylander or Ehlers would be better today.

Would it though? Neither of those players has been asked to succeed in circumstances as dire as the ones Bennett has faced. I'd argue that both Ehlers and Nylander, given Bennett's linemates, would have "struggled" just as much to drag the same useless players up and down the ice in 2016/2017.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

(I see I got fata'd by royle, sorry buddy).



Would it though? Neither of those players has been asked to succeed in circumstances as dire as the ones Bennett has faced. I'd argue that both Ehlers and Nylander, given Bennett's linemates, would have "struggled" just as much to drag the same useless players up and down the ice in 2016/2017.

All good! We're clearly on the same page.

Oh without a doubt they would have struggled just as much, and its clearly why you cannot compare their starts to Bennett's. But some only look at the point totals on their own as a damning stat towards Sam. There's a plethora of additional stats you have to look at before one can honestly declare hes a complete bust, and unfortunately we wont know what he is until he's actually given an extended look on a line that's setup to succeed with skilled linemates during both good and rough patches. None of the on 1 game off the next 3, back on for 2 back off for 5. Give the kid 15-20 games of consistent playing time on top 6 line and see what we've got.

At that point if you'll know what he is and can make an informed decision.
Maybe he continues to struggle
Maybe he ends up finding his groove
Maybe he turns out to be no more than a maximum 30-40pt player
Maybe he turns into a 50-60pt forward with some edge and we can all go home happy.
Maybe we just trade him and then all the Sam hater's can rejoice and find the next rookie to berate with uninformed judgement.

We wont know until we try, and try properly under the right guidance and leadership from a coach who has some common sense outside of playing Veterans for the sake of playing them.
NONE OF US KNOW - Because NOBODY has given him the opportunity at the NHL level.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

cherry picked stats and stuff.

OK man ...he is going to be a superstar based on ...something. Got it.

the guy has been a below to average player since coming into the NHL. You can try and spin crap however you like....its still crap. You do seem to enjoy it though, so carry on.

Bennett has been a complete and utter failure thus far for where he was drafted, what was expected from him, and what he has delivered, and there isn't a single thing that points to anything other wise.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by transplant99

OK man ...he is going to be a superstar based on ...something. Got it.

the guy has been a below to average player since coming into the NHL. You can try and spin crap however you like....its still crap. You do seem to enjoy it though, so carry on.

Bennett has been a complete and utter failure thus far for where he was drafted, what was expected from him, and what he has delivered, and there isn't a single thing that points to anything other wise.

He's in the NHL and has been a decent third-line forward, and put up third-line numbers with very little PP time. That points to his not being ‘a complete and utter failure’.

Alexandre Volchkov was drafted 4th overall and played a grand total of three (3) NHL games, never scored a point, and was a washout in Russia afterwards. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted.

Griffin Reinhart was drafted 4th overall, played 37 NHL games, scored 2 points, and was left exposed in the 2017 expansion draft. Vegas picked him and put him on waivers before he played a single game in a Golden Knights uniform. Nobody claimed him. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted, and helped ensure that the Oilers continue to be a laughingstock.

Jason Bonsignore was drafted 4th, played 79 NHL games spread over four seasons, and scored 3 goals. He was a pretty serious failure.

Pavel Brendl was drafted 4th, played 78 games, and scored 11-11-22 before flaming out and going back to Russia. He was a failure, too.

Benoit Pouliot was drafted 4th, played 625 games, scored 130-133-263 (0.42 ppg), and is still in the league at age 31. I'd call him a disappointment rather than a failure.

So far, Sam Bennett has played 241 games and scored 0.37 ppg. Of all the players listed above, his closest comparable is Pouliot. I would definitely call Bennett a disappointment rather than a failure, and I think I have given more than a single thing that points to that.

Language like ‘complete and utter failure’ says a lot about your expectations, and nothing about Sam Bennett.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Royle9

You cant make this #### up lol.
You're comparison is downright laughable. He's played 2 full seasons in the NHL and has been the primary RW on Matthew's line. Has Bennett had anyone on his line for an EXTENDED period of time as close to as skilled as Matthews or Marner let alone BOTH at times??? 10 games with a cold Johnny and an injured 4th quarter Sean isn't adequate for career levels of judgment.

Nylander - 2017/18

Even Strength Line Combinations
(Not 1 of these line combo's is as bad as sames HIGHEST)
76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4% BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

Which of these combo's would you consider a "4th line at times" because I'd take any one of these as a 2nd or 3rd line on the flames every day.

Even Strength Line Production - 32 PTS - This line combination itself carried half his points. Talk about given a real chance with a generational talent labeled player.
66.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM

Power Play Line Combinations
55.7%BROWN,CONNOR - MARLEAU,PATRICK - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM

Again in hindsight SURE at this point drafting either Nylander or Ehlers would be better today.
But that's not the argument here, the argument specifically ties to the development given to Sam since day 1 here in Calgary. For anyone to claim he's been given as much of a chance to succeed as almost EVERY comparable listed on here is asinine. The stat's show outside of his first stint with Backlund and Frolik in season 1 (where he did quite well as an 18 year old) he's been saddled with absolute garbage outside of Jankowski and a 46 year old Jagr when healthy.

I’m not making this up. All you have to do is google William Nylander 4th line and you’ll see plenty of articles regarding Nylander playing on the 4th line. He’s played center in the past so he has the ability to center his own line.

Why is William Nylander on the Maple Leafs’ fourth line?
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.spor...h-line/sn-amp/

Even if he typically plays with Matthews, he’s still shown the ability to score even without him. Even before Matthews was even drafted, Nylander put up a 0.59 point pace which basically equates to a 50 point player. If Sam Bennett could put up anything close to this pace I don’t think anyone would have a problem with him.

You’re putting way too much emphasis on linemates here because it’s not like Sam Bennett has been tearing it up when he’s playing with Gaudreau. Like I said, outside of 1 game against the Coyotes, I thought he looked terrible with the top line. Really, outside of one month in December, his play was downright awful this season.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

He's in the NHL and has been a decent third-line forward, and put up third-line numbers with very little PP time. That points to his not being ‘a complete and utter failure’.

Alexandre Volchkov was drafted 4th overall and played a grand total of three (3) NHL games, never scored a point, and was a washout in Russia afterwards. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted.

Griffin Reinhart was drafted 4th overall, played 37 NHL games, scored 2 points, and was left exposed in the 2017 expansion draft. Vegas picked him and put him on waivers before he played a single game in a Golden Knights uniform. Nobody claimed him. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted, and helped ensure that the Oilers continue to be a laughingstock.

Jason Bonsignore was drafted 4th, played 79 NHL games spread over four seasons, and scored 3 goals. He was a pretty serious failure.

Pavel Brendl was drafted 4th, played 78 games, and scored 11-11-22 before flaming out and going back to Russia. He was a failure, too.

Benoit Pouliot was drafted 4th, played 625 games, scored 130-133-263 (0.42 ppg), and is still in the league at age 31. I'd call him a disappointment rather than a failure.

So far, Sam Bennett has played 241 games and scored 0.37 ppg. Of all the players listed above, his closest comparable is Pouliot. I would definitely call Bennett a disappointment rather than a failure, and I think I have given more than a single thing that points to that.

Language like complete and utter failure’ ‘says a lot about your expectations, and nothing about Sam Bennett.

You should stop taking things out of context, makes for much better discussion.

You left out the "for where he was drafted part".

Regardless of whether or not other guys in that spot failed as well...OK I guess?

They were all abject failures as well...no?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You should stop taking things out of context, makes for much better discussion.

You should stop flying around the Bow building in a nun's habit, makes for a quieter downtown.

Oh wait, neither of those things have actually happened.

You left out the "for where he was drafted part".

No, I didn't. I specifically addressed ONLY those players who were drafted at that exact position. That wasn't a hint to you?

Regardless of whether or not other guys in that spot failed as well...OK I guess?

They were all abject failures as well...no?

Pouliot is an abject failure?

Go ahead and die on that hill if you like.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It's not about "which line" he played on, it's about who he played with.

Nylander played on one of four lines.

Let's look at his linemates:

76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4% BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

Sorry, but all 4 of those combos are far better than any of the combos that Bennett played with on the "3rd" line. Bennett, on the 3rd line, was playing with players nowhere near as good as the players Nylander got.

Also, I'm not blaming Bennett's lack of production exclusively on his linemates. He's a young player who needs to be developed at the NHL level because the Flames rushed him into the NHL level. I think given his role, he performed adequately. If we want more though, he should have been given better linemates to play with, otherwise expecting Bennett to produce while not giving him the tools to produce with is unrealistic.

Bennett not being able to seize the spot with Monahan and Gaudreau was more Gulutzan than Bennett, in my opinion. He did seize it, then he was demoted for Chris Stewart - or played there so incredibly infrequently that asking him to perform in such spot duty is hard to ask for when you're dealing with a young developing player.

Ferland got to play through cold stretches on the 1st line and was given great stability in that position even when not producing - Bennett has never been given that opportunity under Gulutzan, yet was given that stability with Hartley (not specifically saying Hartley > Gully, because they both sucked). I'd also argue that Bennett is the better player when compared to Ferland without Gaudreau/Monahan on his line.

You say Bennett has the responsibility to make his linemates better after 240+ games - well, what was the expectation for 82 of those games in his 2nd season in the league, and 1st season as a rookie? You expected him to carry Brouwer and Chiasson? Sorry, not realistic. Not when Brouwer proved so effective at ruining his linemates that he couldn't get fired off the top line with Gaudreau and Monahan quick enough - and if Gaudreau/Monahan couldn't produce with Brouwer, expecting Bennett to is insanity.

Prior to Jankowski, all Bennett got to play with is castoffs. That's not setting someone up for success. That's not how good teams develop young players, mainly because good teams wouldn't employ the complete crud that the Flames have over the past two seasons in an attempt to ice an NHL roster.

(I see I got fata'd by royle, sorry buddy).



Would it though? Neither of those players has been asked to succeed in circumstances as dire as the ones Bennett has faced. I'd argue that both Ehlers and Nylander, given Bennett's linemates, would have "struggled" just as much to drag the same useless players up and down the ice in 2016/2017.

Yeah this is where we differ, you clearly have an affinity for Bennett whereas I have zero allegiance to Bennett or Ferland or whoever else gets a chance to play on the top line. I watched him closely when he was on the top line and he had 1 good game against the Coyotes.

Bennett’s best stretch of the season was actually in December with Jankowski and Hathaway where he put up 10 points in 12 games. The rest of the season he put up 16 in 70 games. So he managed to somehow produce admirably for an entire month without top line talent, so what exactly happened the rest of the time?

Lastly, Ehlers and Nylander are considerably more talented than Bennett. It’s obvious from the eye test that they have more dynamic tools and think the game at a higher level. They’d produce better than Bennett even without their current linemates.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You should stop flying around the Bow building in a nun's habit, makes for a quieter downtown.

Oh wait, neither of those things have actually happened.



No, I didn't. I specifically addressed ONLY those players who were drafted at that exact position. That wasn't a hint to you?



Pouliot is an abject failure?

Go ahead and die on that hill if you like.

LOL..ya, you really did. Twice as a matter of fact.

He's in the NHL and has been a decent third-line forward, and put up third-line numbers with very little PP time. That points to his not being ‘a complete and utter failure’.

Alexandre Volchkov was drafted 4th overall and played a grand total of three (3) NHL games, never scored a point, and was a washout in Russia afterwards. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted.

Griffin Reinhart was drafted 4th overall, played 37 NHL games, scored 2 points, and was left exposed in the 2017 expansion draft. Vegas picked him and put him on waivers before he played a single game in a Golden Knights uniform. Nobody claimed him. He was a complete and utter failure for where he was drafted, and helped ensure that the Oilers continue to be a laughingstock.

Jason Bonsignore was drafted 4th, played 79 NHL games spread over four seasons, and scored 3 goals. He was a pretty serious failure.

Pavel Brendl was drafted 4th, played 78 games, and scored 11-11-22 before flaming out and going back to Russia. He was a failure, too.

Benoit Pouliot was drafted 4th, played 625 games, scored 130-133-263 (0.42 ppg), and is still in the league at age 31. I'd call him a disappointment rather than a failure.

So far, Sam Bennett has played 241 games and scored 0.37 ppg. Of all the players listed above, his closest comparable is Pouliot. I would definitely call Bennett a disappointment rather than a failure, and I think I have given more than a single thing that points to that.

Language like ‘complete and utter failure’ says a lot about your expectations, and nothing about Sam Bennett.

And yes, BP is and has been a complete failure for where he was drafted. Not sure how that is even debateable. You think that those teas that drafted those guys see it ANY other way?

If you want to lower the bar and suggest other players drafted in the same spot were/are worse than Bennett, OK fill your boots. Doesn't change how inconsequential he has been thus far as a Flame.

And you got me...I did and do expect WAY more from the 4th overall than anything he has provided 3 years into his pro playing career, particularly after getting to spend the entire first year with the club rehabbing. Thats a prime opportunity to learn...he didn't.

It's becoming very clear that criticism based on his existing resume is now off limits around here, and I simply dont get it.

I will bow out with this nuggett.

Nail Yakupov at age 21....192 games played. 88 pts accumulated.

Sam Bennett at age 21....241 games played. 89 pts accumulated.

3 years in... the CP collective would have, rightfully, ridiculed Oiler fans for suggesting it was only linemates or that Yakupov was just fine and going to break out any minute.

Mind boggling.

[jayswin]

So the key to unlocking Bennett's potential is to only play him in pre-season games. Gulutzan was an idiot, he had him out there right til the end of the year.

[indes]

Ugh this thread makes me sad. I had huge hopes for Bennett (I'm sure everyone else did too).

I really hope they jam him with either Monahan and Gaudreau or Backlund and Tkachuk throughout preseason and into the season. Give him all the rope to hang himself and see what we really have with him. I know, I know he should 'earn' the minutes but I would like to see the organization say 'we think you have what it takes to contribute, take your time and prove us right.'

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I’m not making this up. All you have to do is google William Nylander 4th line and you’ll see plenty of articles regarding Nylander playing on the 4th line. He’s played center in the past so he has the ability to center his own line.

Why is William Nylander on the Maple Leafs’ fourth line?
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.spor...h-line/sn-amp/

Even if he typically plays with Matthews, he’s still shown the ability to score even without him. Even before Matthews was even drafted, Nylander put up a 0.59 point pace which basically equates to a 50 point player. If Sam Bennett could put up anything close to this pace I don’t think anyone would have a problem with him.

You’re putting way too much emphasis on linemates here because it’s not like Sam Bennett has been tearing it up when he’s playing with Gaudreau. Like I said, outside of 1 game against the Coyotes, I thought he looked terrible with the top line. Really, outside of one month in December, his play was downright awful this season.

Even Strength Line Combinations - ENTIRE SEASON -
(Not 1 of these line combo's is as bad as sames HIGHEST)
76.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MATTHEWS,AUSTON - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
10.3% KADRI,NAZEM - KOMAROV,LEO - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.8% HYMAN,ZACH - MARLEAU,PATRICK - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
4.7% HYMAN,ZACH - MARNER,MITCHELL - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
3.4%BOZAK,TYLER - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

WHERE IS THE 4th LINE? The above are the pairings he played last season, all stats from every game. Sure they may have called it a "4th line" in a newspaper clipping but do any of the guys above look like 4th liners when compared to what the flames hail as 4th liners? Brouwer, Hathaway, Chiasson, Lazar, Stajan etc??



.59 pace? Was that in the 22 game season? He never played a full season before Mathew's was drafted. Look at his linemates during that season:

53.7% HYMAN,ZACH - NYLANDER,WILLIAM - PARENTEAU,PIERRE
14.5% HYMAN,ZACH - KAPANEN,KASPERI - NYLANDER,WILLIAM
Parenteau had 41pts in 71 games

"even if the majority of the time he plays with Matthews" - Do you realize what you're saying? You cannot for a second compare Nylander playing alongside Matthews basically 80% of his career to Bennett not putting up points playing with career 3rd/4th line players. There's no "EVEN IF Bennett" because he's never been given 80% playing time with our top 2 STARS.

Matthew's is a generational hyped player, there is no comparable. I would bet $ on Sam putting up 50pts if he played along side Matthew's for 80% of his first 2 seasons including top line PP time on a PP with success.

Let's circle back to "if Sam could put up anything"
Bennett had a .67 PPG in 2015-16, what does that basically equate to partner? The fact you're using "basically equates" as leverage for "fact" should discredit you alone.

See the difference is I'm not putting too much emphasis on Sam's linemates because he's had garbage for the majority of his "3" year career thus far, playing 2 of those under a coach who gave him a very short leash and saddled him with veteran plugs for the majority of the time. I'm not making this up, the statistics show it, I'm simply bringing visibility to the claims people are making here.


How many Flames forward looked "fantastic" to you this season?
Johnny - Sure
Sean - Sure
Ferland - Sure the first half, 2nd half he fell back to reality
Tkachuk - Half decent, he played his ROLE well
Backlund - Underperformed
Frolik - Underperformed
Brouwer - disaster
Stajan - servicable
Lazar - disaster
Hathaway - should never see any time outside of 4th line 13F playing time.
Jankowski - Inconsistent
Bennett - Inconsistent

Bennett and Jankowski looked basically similar, except Jankowski is 2 years older and was given 5 more years of development time VS Bennett thrown into the NHL immediately.

I'm not saying Sam turns into a 60pt ALLSTAR, I'm not selling him as the next best forward the Flames will have 2018/19. Because I dont know
What I do know is Sam has yet to be given the tools needed to succeed thus far in his short career. Perhaps its too late, hockey is a mental game and there's a chance he'll never turnout because he was rushed. But nobody here today can say 100% fact that Sam will NEVER be good even if he's given top 6 time because nobody has seen what he can do in that position thus far.

Its like me saying Bingo wont be a good a making hockey sticks. I have no clue, I haven't seen him make one, I don't know if hes been trained properly, I don't know if anyone's shown him the craft thus far and given him the tools needed to build one. But there are some of you who would say today that he cant because he he's built chairs before and his chair measurements are terrible compared to everyone else yet he's never been given the proper tools to build chairs.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by transplant99

LOL..ya, you really did. Twice as a matter of fact.

Nail Yakupov at age 21....192 games played. 88 pts accumulated.

Sam Bennett at age 21....241 games played. 89 pts accumulated.

Here we go again with this ####.
Please do your homework before you compare 2 players.

Yakupov's linemates:

Even Strength Line Combinations

Freq Line Combination
33.4% MCDAVID,CONNOR - POULIOT,BENOIT - YAKUPOV,NAIL - Thats a 3rd of the season with McJesus
27.7% KASSIAN,ZACK - LETESTU,MARK - YAKUPOV,NAIL
13.6% DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - YAKUPOV,NAIL

[Mr.Coffee]

At this point I don’t know how anyone could argue that Bennett is what we thought or hoped he would be. It’s not too late, but it sure isn’t encouraging and like somebody else mentioned awhile ago, the Flames need this guy to emerge in order to be a true contender.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

At this point I don’t know how anyone could argue that Bennett is what we thought or hoped he would be. It’s not too late, but it sure isn’t encouraging and like somebody else mentioned awhile ago, the Flames need this guy to emerge in order to be a true contender.

Exactly, if his best is 3rd line winger they have cheaper options down the line with Mangiapane, Dube, Foo etc. They need help on the top 6. If none of them can get there we move one of them with D prospect to get that. Flames are crowded with 3rd line depth and D prospects. Won’t get anywhere until they fix top 6.