Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I honestly think there are some that are so disappointed that he's not a star that's it's clouding him to the negative.

He's 21 with three seasons under his belt
He's averaged roughly 30 points a season
He makes 1.9M
He has speed, hands, jam.

This is the kind of player the Flames would be looking at to upgrade the third line, and perhaps unearth a kid that could move into a second line role.

Why trade the one you have as a "throw in"?

Park the emotion people.

Yeah, I guess at $1.9M he is decent value as a 3rd line player. Maybe some upside as well.

The issue though with him not hitting his potential the Flames have a void in their top 6 especially on wing. Ferland was good on top line but Flames would be better to improve there. Same with Frolik in the top 6. If Bennett with another player can get you that top 6 winger then you have to move him. Mangiapane/Foo, Versteeg, Frolik/Ferland etc could be just as effective on 3rd line wing. Dube could be there as well soon. Log jam on 3rd line and need to fill top 6.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Has anyone stopped and wondered if the reason why Bennett hasnt been living up to potential is because he isnt playing with good players? Besides backlund, frolik, monahan, gaudreau, the skill just isnt there. We wont be good for a very long time unfortunately. Unless we can trade gio or dougie for high end offensive help.

Bennett was expected to be the good player though. The guy that was supposed to make those around him better. Now he is the guy who needs guys to make him better. a 4th overall pick that requires others to make him successful is an abject failure.

Sure he is fine as a 3rd line guy, but that just means the club has to find someone else to do what he was expected to do. That's why dealing him should not be off the board. If he is what is needed to be part of something to upgrade what he has failed at, then it has to happen or the club is simply spinning its wheels.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Bennett was expected to be the good player though. The guy that was supposed to make those around him better. Now he is the guy who needs guys to make him better. a 4th overall pick that requires others to make him successful is an abject failure.

Sure he is fine as a 3rd line guy, but that just means the club has to find someone else to do what he was expected to do. That's why dealing him should not be off the board. If he is what is needed to be part of something to upgrade what he has failed at, then it has to happen or the club is simply spinning its wheels.

No young player gets given bad players the way Bennett was. Go look at recent comparable top picks, and look at their linemates. What the Flames did with Bennett is not what good teams do with young promising players. Expecting young players to step in and carry linemates as bad as what Bennett got is unrealistic and damaging, and it's one of many reasons why this organization has sucked as long as it has. They make stupid decisions.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Okay? So Sam's high PIM = Why he is justifiably not getting top 6 time for all the right reasons?

Sam Bennett - 59PIM

Let's compare: (Flames Only)

Matthew Tkachuk - 62
Mark Giordano - 63
Mikael Backlund - 78
Travis Hamonic - 79

Other Playes(Top 6 Role):

Evgeni Malkin - 87
Evander Kane - 82
Milan Lucic - 80 (arguably not a top 6 but is on EDM)
Ryan Johansen - 78
Max Domi - 73 (many want him on the flames)
Steven Stamkos - 72
Nick Ritchie - 72 (top 9 for arguments sake)
Alexander Radulov - 72
Corey Perry - 71
Dylan Larkin - 61

Players like Simmonds, Hornqvist, Brayden Schenn, MacKinnon, Trochek, Jamie Benn are literally 1-5 PIM's lower then Bennett.

Many others more suited for top 6-9 rolls then specifically top 6 always.
Regardless, PIM clearly should NOT imply no top 6 time. You've got bonafide ELITE superstars like Malkin and Stamkos putting up more PIM and still getting 1st line/1st PP time and putting up points.

I fail to see how PIM = No time should be given - It's clearly a closed minded evaluation that means very little to most GM's/Coaches/Teams

"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"

Sing It with me now!

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No young player gets given bad players the way Bennett was. Go look at recent comparable top picks, and look at their linemates. What the Flames did with Bennett is not what good teams do with young promising players. Expecting young players to step in and carry linemates as bad as what Bennett got is unrealistic and damaging, and it's one of many reasons why this organization has sucked as long as it has. They make stupid decisions.

ALL young players are generally eased into a lineup, not given top line/best linemates off the hop.

As has been pointed out, he was no better than usual when he was with the top line.

Blaming linemates for Bennetts regression and subsequent lack of consistency in his offensive game is just ridiculous. Top picks are top picks not because they get to play with certain players...they are the certain players after some time. His time has already been underway for at least a year.

The guy has been a pro for 4 years now. Do you see ANY progression? Maybe he bucks the trend and has a break out year, but watching his game, I certainly don't see it. Hell, he is still trying junior moves on NHL dmen every game and getting embarrassed when he does, yet he continues to do so. Just not very smart when it comes down to it.

His compete level fluctuates shift to shift at times. He can be a bulldog one moment and completely invisible for the next 2 periods when he then will take a foolish penalty 200 feet from his net. Again, hockey IQ is very questionable.

He looks like he will be a good to great PKer though, and that is something for sure. Just not what a 4th overall should become as a ceiling.

I will agree most all the tools are there, but then there is that unavoidable toolbox part of the equation. Thus far the guy simply hasn't shown any ability/willingness to adjust what he does to be both more successful offensively and in turn be an asset to his team.

Again, if he needs to be part of a package that upgrades where he was supposed to already be, then BT pulls the trigger in a heartbeat IMO.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"

Sing It with me now!

your arguments are so terrible.
Now you'll flip the script to say Bennett doesn't put up POINTS like the players on the list so his PIM's shouldn't be compared to them.
This after saying PIM = shouldn't be given top 6 time

Doesn't get Top 6 time
Doesn't get much PP time
Doesn't play with teammates to give him the best opportunity to succeed

And yet you're now comparing him to players on the list who've been given years of TOP 6 time playing alongside hockey royalty, most of the players being on a better side of 25+ years old.

You're assessment of him never amounting to anything more than 30-40 PTS could be true, but your reasoning behind WHY he's only been that successful thus far is terrible as proven by your OWN arguments. No point discussing further.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Royle9

your arguments are so terrible.

Actually he is dead on...not sure what sort of comparison that would be when you take in to account both offensive production AND PIMs...cause one does not belong with the others.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

ALL young players are generally eased into a lineup, not given top line/best linemates off the hop.

As has been pointed out, he was no better than usual when he was with the top line.

Blaming linemates for Bennetts regression and subsequent lack of consistency in his offensive game is just ridiculous. Top picks are top picks not because they get to play with certain players...they are the certain players after some time. His time has already been underway for at least a year.

The guy has been a pro for 4 years now. Do you see ANY progression? Maybe he bucks the trend and has a break out year, but watching his game, I certainly don't see it. Hell, he is still trying junior moves on NHL dmen every game and getting embarrassed when he does, yet he continues to do so. Just not very smart when it comes down to it.

His compete level fluctuates shift to shift at times. He can be a bulldog one moment and completely invisible for the next 2 periods when he then will take a foolish penalty 200 feet from his net. Again, hockey IQ is very questionable.

He looks like he will be a good to great PKer though, and that is something for sure. Just not what a 4th overall should become as a ceiling.

I will agree most all the tools are there, but then there is that unavoidable toolbox part of the equation. Thus far the guy simply hasn't shown any ability/willingness to adjust what he does to be both more successful offensively and in turn be an asset to his team.

Again, if he needs to be part of a package that upgrades where he was supposed to already be, then BT pulls the trigger in a heartbeat IMO.

You're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm not saying top players for linemates, I'm saying non-terrible linemates. In 16/17, he was fed absolutely awful 5v5 linemates.

In 17/18, it started the same way - and then Jankowski showed up. His first good linemate that he got to play with for an extended period of time since he played with Backlund and Frolik, when he had a strong rookie season. I do see rebounding in his game, sure Bennett and Jankowski battled inconsistencies, but they also had to carry outright bad right wingers all season long yet they still both produced at decent 3rd line scoring rates.

Tossing the kid on the 1st line and expecting immediate results, and then kicking him around the lineup is also not how you develop young players. They need consistency and help, and the Flames gave Bennett no consistency and no help. He hasn't played with someone with any consistency who could help him raise his game since Backlund.

Then again, the Flames signed and played horrifically bad players in their bottom 6, so expecting them to be capable of making smart decisions does seem like asking too much at times.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

You're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm not saying top players for linemates, I'm saying non-terrible linemates. In 16/17, he was fed absolutely awful 5v5 linemates.

In 17/18, it started the same way - and then Jankowski showed up. His first good linemate that he got to play with for an extended period of time since he played with Backlund and Frolik, when he had a strong rookie season. I do see rebounding in his game, sure Bennett and Jankowski battled inconsistencies, but they also had to carry outright bad right wingers all season long yet they still both produced at decent 3rd line scoring rates.

Tossing the kid on the 1st line and expecting immediate results, and then kicking him around the lineup is also not how you develop young players. They need consistency and help, and the Flames gave Bennett no consistency and no help. He hasn't played with someone with any consistency who could help him raise his game since Backlund.

Then again, the Flames signed and played horrifically bad players in their bottom 6, so expecting them to be capable of making smart decisions does seem like asking too much at times.

Im not going to go on about this but the reason he was moved around so much was because HE was (more often than not) the problem with his line being ineffective or flat out terrible...but sure its always someone elses fault for his poor play.

Oh and he is not a "kid" any longer, he has 4 years as an NHL player under his belt and he still hasn't changed bad habits/junior moves.

Hopefully he figures it out, but nothing indicates that is about to happen any time soon.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Actually he is dead on...not sure what sort of comparison that would be when you take in to account both offensive production AND PIMs...cause one does not belong with the others.

His argument specifically equates to:

"Sam shouldn't get TOP 6 time because his PIM is 59"

My response is simply, PIM should not dictate potential scoring output based on playing time awarded. We don't know what Sam's point total would be if he was awarded constant top 6 time the whole seasons playing with skilled wingers because he's never been given the chance thus far.

He has just as much of a chance to get 50-60 pts while having 59PIM playing on the top 2 lines as he does currently playing on the 3rd and 4th line putting up 30pts. Who's to say otherwise? Nobody can because it hasn't been seen.

What we do know is he's not been given a very good shot to succeed thus far, so evaluating him today with 1 final "brush" and getting rid of him for nothing is ridiculously foolish.

The argument doesn't work because its hearsay.

[united]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Okay? So Sam's high PIM = Why he is justifiably not getting top 6 time for all the right reasons?

Sam Bennett - 59PIM

Let's compare: (Flames Only)

Matthew Tkachuk - 62
Mikael Backlund - 78

Other Playes(Top 6 Role):

Evgeni Malkin - 87
Evander Kane - 82
Ryan Johansen - 78
Max Domi - 73
Steven Stamkos - 72
Alexander Radulov - 72
Corey Perry - 71
Dylan Larkin - 61

Removed defencemen and Lucic/Ritchie.

Here is P/60 and penalty differential for context as raw PIMs is pointless.

Sam Bennett - 59PIM 1.27 / -7

Let's compare: (Flames Only)

Matthew Tkachuk - 62 2.51 / +18
Mikael Backlund - 78 1.73 / -21

Other Playes(Top 6 Role):

Evgeni Malkin - 87 3.97 / -9
Evander Kane - 82 2.08 / -10
Ryan Johansen - 78 2.17 / -10
Max Domi - 73 1.97 / -5
Steven Stamkos - 72 3.44 / -12
Alexander Radulov - 72 2.58 / -14
Corey Perry - 71 2.28 / -1
Dylan Larkin - 61 2.27 / -1

Simmonds 1.99 / -2
Hornqvist 2.38 / -2
Schenn 2.6 / even
MacKinnon 3.95 / +4
Trochek 2.57 / +5
Benn 2.92 / -5

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oh and he is not a "kid" any longer, he has 4 years as an NHL player under his belt and he still hasn't changed bad habits/junior moves.

What a slanted ass stat this is.

He's played 3 NHL seasons, while in the previous year he missed an entire year of development and managed to get back to make his NHL debut in Game 82 of a season and then went on to put up an impressive playoff debut.

Oh, and he's 21 - which, yeah - is VERY young.

After transitioning to Jankowski's wing and getting away from playing with two bad line mates and down to only one bad linemate, Bennett scored at a 30 point pace - which would have had him in the proper range of being a 3rd line player.

He also put up a CF% of 52.6% on the season, and shot at an awful 7% compared to 10.7% and 13.2% in the two previous years, all while shooting more than he ever has.

His 17/18 shooting % being below the league average for the last 4 years makes him a pretty likely candidate to see his % rise back up as well, so let's take a look at what his 157 shots in 17/18 could have resulted in:

13.2% (his 15/16 shooting %): 21 goals
10.7% (his 16/17 shooting %): 18 goals
8.9% (league average shooting % over the last 4 years): 14 goals
7% (his 17/18 shooting %): 11 goals

With the way Gully utilized Bennett, the 14 goals he would have got if he had shot the league average over the last 4 years seems pretty darn reasonable and productive.

Meanwhile, we've got Ferland who has shot at:

5.9%
3.3%
14.2%
14.4%

Want to know what the big surprise is about the last two numbers? We know who his linemates were. It's almost as if the quality of linemates has a direct link to the quality of shots taken.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by united

Here is P/60 and penalty differential for context as raw PIMs is pointless

I agree, unfortunately we'd also need to take into consideration both Top 6 playing time (in minutes + powerplay time) as well as teammates they were playing with and their points.

Most of the guys on the list put up FAR more points then Sam, there's no denying that. But they also play 1st/2nd line FULL time, significant PP time and play along side skilled linemates.

There really is no way we can compare Sam to any of them because he's yet to be given a chance, that's my point.

Flash went on to say that he's not given a chance because his PIM is high.
PIM should not equal chance given, because the list shows you can have a high PIM and still put up significant points.

[GranteedEV]

There's a full display of everything Sam Bennett is capable of in this video.



It's just a preseason game, but not one of those plays is inherently a "preseason" play. Finding Brodie cross-ice from the right half wall through layers of traffic. Instantly and deceptively finding Gaudreau to his right on the power play for a one-timer. Springing Gaudreau not once, but twice on breakaways (the second of which required a perfect bank pass). I've seen him make plays of this sort in NHL games, just not in a succint package the way he was able to in this preseason game where he not only got to center Gaudreau and Ferland, but also saw PP1 time with the same players (the only other time he centered those two this year was a game in Carolina, and it was Troy Brouwer who got placed into that role on the PP instead of him)

People always fixate on what they perceive to be junior plays (i.e. toedrags) (like, go watch good players in the conference finals - guys like Ovechkin and Stamkos just yesterday - they try and fail at "junior plays pretty often too.) and really seem oblivious to the things Bennett does at a high level. Bennett does a LOT at a high level. There are areas of his game that could improve like any 21 year old (I don't think he's great at deflecting point shots for instance) but not harnessing his potential is simply a waste.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I honestly think there are some that are so disappointed that he's not a star that's it's clouding him to the negative.

He's 21 with three seasons under his belt
He's averaged roughly 30 points a season
He makes 1.9M
He has speed, hands, jam.

This is the kind of player the Flames would be looking at to upgrade the third line, and perhaps unearth a kid that could move into a second line role.

Why trade the one you have as a "throw in"?

Park the emotion people.

I believe the good value Bennett brings for $1.9 million is weighted very heavily towards his youth and upside.

If he was 28 years old after 2 consecutive 26 point seasons, we would be thinking replacement level vs. good value.

But he is 21. So fair to see what he does under a new coach.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Royle9

I agree, unfortunately we'd also need to take into consideration both Top 6 playing time (in minutes + powerplay time) as well as teammates they were playing with and their points.

Most of the guys on the list put up FAR more points then Sam, there's no denying that. But they also play 1st/2nd line FULL time, significant PP time and play along side skilled linemates.

There really is no way we can compare Sam to any of them because he's yet to be given a chance, that's my point.

Flash went on to say that he's not given a chance because his PIM is high.
PIM should not equal chance given, because the list shows you can have a high PIM and still put up significant points.

I thought it was obvious, but I guess not, so let me spell it out.

He produces some of the lowest offense and highest minor penalties of any player in the league playing his kind of minutes. Ferland by comparison basically takes ZERO minor penalties. Ferland may not be an adequate top line player for a contending roster, but he doesn't HURT the top line when he's playing there.

One of the way Bennett hurts the team and his linemates the most is by taking penalties. He's a relative penalty machine for a guy that plays less than 15 minutes per night. He's not taking majors or game misconducts like Tkachuk is, he's taking stick infractions, hooking, slashing, high sticking. He's a penalty machine.

Malkin can take all the freakin penalties he wants if he's going to score 100 points in a season. A guy who scores 26(!) points doesn't have that luxury and won't get that kind of leash.

The PROBLEM is that bennetts penalties don't seem to be a result of his 'jam', they seem to be a result of an inability to be positionally sound from situation to situation to the point where he reaches in, grabs a stick, trips a player going the other way etc etc etc.

He can't be relied upon to play with skilled players because he will either crash into them like he did with Jagr and Gaudreau this year, or he'll take them off the ice when the team has to kill off one of his penalties.

For the first 20 or so games of the season thhis year he was taking a minor penalty every other game while being a 13 point pace until moved to the wing. For a player playing less than 15 minutes a night in a non-checking role that is simply inexcusable and won't earn him any extra icetime.

Why doesn't Ferland take a million minor penalties a year? Does he not have 'Jam'?

IMO it's because Ferland is a better and more versatile player than Bennett, now and into the future.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

There's a full display of everything Sam Bennett is capable of in this video.

It's just a preseason game

lol, this couldn't be any more perfect if you tried.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Malkin can take all the freakin penalties he wants if he's going to score 100 points in a season. A guy who scores 26(!) points doesn't have that luxury and won't get that kind of leash.

He can't be relied upon to play with skilled players because he will either crash into them like he did with Jagr and Gaudreau this year, or he'll take them off the ice when the team has to kill off one of his penalties.

For the first 20 or so games of the season thhis year he was taking a minor penalty every other game while being a 13 point pace until moved to the wing. For a player playing less than 15 minutes a night in a non-checking role that is simply inexcusable and won't earn him any extra icetime.

Why doesn't Ferland take a million minor penalties a year? Does he not have 'Jam'?

IMO it's because Ferland is a better and more versatile player than Bennett, now and into the future.

I wonder what Malkin would have equated too playing along side 2 plugs for the majority of his career? He was put in a position to succeed while playing with SIDNEY CROSBY during his first few years. But lets compare the TWO. Sam is still 21 with TONS of room to grow if given the right opportunity.

He bumped into a couple players once, that must make him a terrible player. No other players every run into each other, they are too good and put up too many points to bother bumping into someone accidentally. Great argument!

Actually yes, Ferland played with little to no 'Jam" at all this season actually. That's what made him severely ineffective for most of the 2nd half of the season. He's also not a solution to any contenders top line RW, he's on ours because we have 0 RW depth so he shines when compared to both Frolik and Brouwer, but that's not saying much.

He's not a bad player, but he's no perennial 20 goal scorer by any stretch. We've seen it once, lets see if he can do it again and lets see if he can do it not on a line with SM and JG before we label him anymore more than a depth top 9 forward.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Royle9

He played roughly 11 GAMES over the course of the season on a line with JG and SM and not all of that time was a full game on their line. How is that considered "exclusively"

These games came in the LAST QUARTER of the season meaning the season was already basically over at this point. Sean was injured and not playing up to par, Johnny's game had slowed down (PPG wise) and yet Bennett didn't look out of place and often times he looked like he was driving the line to some extent.

The kid has skills, his hockey IQ is probably the only knock that holds some merit but I think the right coach and the right opportunity (He's an emotional player) would do the kid wonders.

I don't believe for a second that if he was given the same leash Ferland received getting top 6 minutes CONSISTENTLY for 2 straight quarters that he wouldn't produce playing along side skilled teammates. He's had flashes of taking over games single handily, he's shown some real solid chemistry with JG when Sean went down. This includes PP time on a PP that produces, lots of these comparables people have thrown out with more points have players who get frequent PP time on teams who's PP actually works.

I think if you took our current lineup and put a 2nd line together like below we'd be looking at a solid group able to put up some serious points and play with an edge every night.

Tkachuk - Bennett - Scoring Winger (Hoffman/Josh Anderson/James Neal)

The point I was making was that he was not playing with Troy Brouwer, that in fact he had mostly played with either Jankowski and Hathaway or with Gaudreau and Monahan.

Also, I'm in complete disagreement. I thought outside of 1 game against the Coyotes, Bennett looked awful with Gaudreau and/or Monahan. It's as clear as day to me why Ferland was up on the 1st line while Bennett was on the 3rd.

Also, Sam Bennett on the PP, was nothing special. He didn't provide anything more than anyone else on the team. He had 3 PP points in 111 minutes. Even Troy Brouwer had more PP points (5) in less minutes (93 mins).

Lastly, I never want to see Sam Bennett as a center again. Doesn't even matter if Tkachuk is on his line to help him out, he simply doesn't have the type of skillset that's suitable for the center position. His skills are clearly more apt for the winger position where he can get on the forecheck, play physical and try to grind away goals. Jankowski makes more sense up the middle anyway.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

There's a full display of everything Sam Bennett is capable of in this video.



It's just a preseason game, but not one of those plays is inherently a "preseason" play. Finding Brodie cross-ice from the right half wall through layers of traffic. Instantly and deceptively finding Gaudreau to his right on the power play for a one-timer. Springing Gaudreau not once, but twice on breakaways (the second of which required a perfect bank pass). I've seen him make plays of this sort in NHL games, just not in a succint package the way he was able to in this preseason game where he not only got to center Gaudreau and Ferland, but also saw PP1 time with the same players (the only other time he centered those two this year was a game in Carolina, and it was Troy Brouwer who got placed into that role on the PP instead of him)

People always fixate on what they perceive to be junior plays (i.e. toedrags) (like, go watch good players in the conference finals - guys like Ovechkin and Stamkos just yesterday - they try and fail at "junior plays pretty often too.) and really seem oblivious to the things Bennett does at a high level. Bennett does a LOT at a high level. There are areas of his game that could improve like any 21 year old (I don't think he's great at deflecting point shots for instance) but not harnessing his potential is simply a waste.

A preseason game against an AHL-level team? You might as well have shown us sam's highlight video from the OHL lol.
Can I ask you an honest question: Do you think that Sam Bennett is better suited for Centre at the NHL level than Sean Monahan, for example?