MacKinnon vs... absolutely nobody from this era

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Most people think Backlund is a good 3rd line center and he is IMO. There is a difference between untouchable and not wanting to give him away

Backlund Is a spectacular third line centre.

The problem is, he developed late, so he priced himself out of the market as a third line centre, being paid as a great 2nd line centre.

It prevented Calgary being able to afford to obtain an offensive 2nd line centre.

Look at Bolland who played that role for Chicago during their SC years. Once he hit UFA, he was gone, although he was more ir less finished but then, as be couldn’t keep up that pace physically for that many years.

Is you ever check the Hawks OT goals during that period, he was involved in a material amount of those goals.amount


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[dino7c]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Backlund Is a spectacular third line centre.

The problem is, he developed late, so he priced himself out of the market as a third line centre, being paid as a great 2nd line centre.

It prevented Calgary being able to afford to obtain an offensive 2nd line centre.

Look at Bolland who played that role for Chicago during their SC years. Once he hit UFA, he was gone, although he was more ir less finished but then, as be couldn’t keep up that pace physically for that many years.

Is you ever check the Hawks OT goals during that period, he was involved in a material amount of those goals.amount


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No it didn't...see Neal/Lucic

If the Flames gave away Backlund what upgrade are they going to get for 5.3?

[1qqaaz]

Maybe an offensive defenseman, which is a piece they arguably need more than a third line center.

In terms of that price range there aren't a ton of suitable free agents though. Hamilton will make way more. Barrie maybe. Mike Reilly would be reasonable, but he only had about a 40 point pace.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Backlund Is a spectacular third line centre.

The problem is, he developed late, so he priced himself out of the market as a third line centre, being paid as a great 2nd line centre.

It prevented Calgary being able to afford to obtain an offensive 2nd line centre.

Look at Bolland who played that role for Chicago during their SC years. Once he hit UFA, he was gone, although he was more ir less finished but then, as be couldn’t keep up that pace physically for that many years.

Is you ever check the Hawks OT goals during that period, he was involved in a material amount of those goals.amount


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This is still not quite right.

Backlund would be a spectacular third line centre because he is still a very serviceable second line centre, and his current cap hit reflects that. If he is exposed in the expansion draft he very likely could end up being tbe best available forward. And if he is selected by Seattle he could be centering their top line next season.

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[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is still not quite right.

Backlund would be a spectacular third line centre because he is still a very serviceable second line centre, and his current cap hit reflects that.

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Really?

Then why are the Flames one of the worst franchises in the league over Backlund's signing a core level contract 2015-16

#25 in Playoff wins #24 in playoff games played

#21 in regular season winning %

Winning teams have players that have value contracts. Backlund is a solid 2nd line centre compared to the other 2nd line centres on the also ran teams.

The Flames have seldom been in a position where Backlund could prove his worth. Lowry is a far better 3C than Backlund because he actually shut down McDavid in important games.

Lowry is costing the Jets 2M/ yr less than Backlund over the next 3 years.

[Enoch Root]

So it's Backlund's fault that the team hasn't been great?

The basterd!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Really?

Then why are the Flames one of the worst franchises in the league over Backlund's signing a core level contract 2015-16

#25 in Playoff wins #24 in playoff games played

#21 in regular season winning %

Winning teams have players that have value contracts. Backlund is a solid 2nd line centre compared to the other 2nd line centres on the also ran teams.

The Flames have seldom been in a position where Backlund could prove his worth. Lowry is a far better 3C than Backlund because he actually shut down McDavid in important games.

Lowry is costing the Jets 2M/ yr less than Backlund over the next 3 years.

So Backlund is the reason for the Flames lack of success? OK. I guess goaltending, lack of scoring at critical times, etc had nothing to do with it.

And it's pretty inaccurate to say Lowry shut down McDavid, when at least half of the time it was Scheifele's line against McDavid's. But moreover it was team D.

Top team with value second C contracts - which ones are those? TB has Stamkos at $8.5M? Vegas has Karlsson playing 2C at $5.9, though his 39 points aren't that far off Backlund's third line 32 points. Isles are paying Pageau $5M to play 3C and score 28 points, and Nelson is making $6M at 2C (scored 36 points). The Canes pay Staal $6M.

[Erick Estrada]

I will say that when the Flames don't meet expectations it's always Gaudreau, Monahan or the goaltenders that take the brunt of the blame. This team has been underachieving long before they arrived and I still think Backlund and Giordano are the guys you move if you want to really alter the culture of the team.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I will say that when the Flames don't meet expectations it's always Gaudreau, Monahan or the goaltenders that take the brunt of the blame. This team has been underachieving long before they arrived and I still think Backlund and Giordano are the guys you move if you want to really alter the culture of the team.

Is it possible that the Flames are not good as thought on CP? The problem with having a bunch of super fans discuss the team is that because everyone is wearing rose-coloured glasses the players are possibly overrated and any negativity is shot down.
I would argue that if you have a few seasons spread over the last 20 that the Flames get out of the second round or win the division, those are the over achievements, a team that constantly is a bubble team over the last few decades does not underachieve when it continues to be a bubble team.
The team is a sum of its parts, individual stars help, but it takes the team to win, TB won last year because of star players but also the ability of their 3rd and 4th lines to excel in their roles

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So Backlund is the reason for the Flames lack of success? OK. I guess goaltending, lack of scoring at critical times, etc had nothing to do with it.

And it's pretty inaccurate to say Lowry shut down McDavid, when at least half of the time it was Scheifele's line against McDavid's. But moreover it was team D.

Top team with value second C contracts - which ones are those? TB has Stamkos at $8.5M? Vegas has Karlsson playing 2C at $5.9, though his 39 points aren't that far off Backlund's third line 32 points. Isles are paying Pageau $5M to play 3C and score 28 points, and Nelson is making $6M at 2C (scored 36 points). The Canes pay Staal $6M.

Karlsson is playing like at the very least 1B centre in 60 playoff games over the last 4 years. +18 41 pts

Brock Nelson has 15 goals and 28 pts in his last 35 playoff games over the last 2 seasons.

They are value contracts when they are the best players on the team in important games.

Karlson is a prime example - he scored 43 goals in 2017-18 and did a 1 yr deal for 5.25 and fell off to 24 goals to sign a 5.9 x 8


Backlund was coming off a 22 goal year and in the middle of a fall off to 14 goal year (-21) when the Flames extended him at age 29 to a 5.35 x 6.

Who does the contract negotiations for the Flames? Were they getting kick back from the agents? Maybe if the cap were to have doubled by now it might have been rationalized. There is basically no chance that Backlund will ever get more than 22 goals in a year for his whole career.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I will say that when the Flames don't meet expectations it's always Gaudreau, Monahan or the goaltenders that take the brunt of the blame. This team has been underachieving long before they arrived and I still think Backlund and Giordano are the guys you move if you want to really alter the culture of the team.

For sure, I would tend to agree. But I think there is this middle ground when it comes to players on our favourite teams that we all tend to overlook, and end up vacilatimg between extremes of projecting them either as amazing or terrible. My point is that Backlund is not nearly as limited as a lot of posters assume.

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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I will say that when the Flames don't meet expectations it's always Gaudreau, Monahan or the goaltenders that take the brunt of the blame. This team has been underachieving long before they arrived and I still think Backlund and Giordano are the guys you move if you want to really alter the culture of the team.

I find this an interesting take because they are two of the players that put forth a pretty consistent effort and play strong two way games.

Why do you think they are the problem with the culture, apart from the fact that they've been around for a long time?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Karlsson is playing like at the very least 1B centre in 60 playoff games over the last 4 years. +18 41 pts

Brock Nelson has 15 goals and 28 pts in his last 35 playoff games over the last 2 seasons.

They are value contracts when they are the best players on the team in important games.

Karlson is a prime example - he scored 43 goals in 2017-18 and did a 1 yr deal for 5.25 and fell off to 24 goals to sign a 5.9 x 8


Backlund was coming off a 22 goal year and in the middle of a fall off to 14 goal year (-21) when the Flames extended him at age 29 to a 5.35 x 6.

Who does the contract negotiations for the Flames? Were they getting kick back from the agents? Maybe if the cap were to have doubled by now it might have been rationalized. There is basically no chance that Backlund will ever get more than 22 goals in a year for his whole career.

LOL. Backlund's contract is value when compared to his peers in production and role. Karlsson is a 2C. he doesn't play on the top line. And if you think his production is an example, he scores about the same and is paid about the same.

But thanks for moving the goalposts into PO production. I'm sure that Karlsson's post season production has nothing to do with the fact he doesn't have to check the opposition top line.

[dino7c]

I'm still waiting to hear what player is coming here for 5.3 that is better than Backlund

you can go on a condescending rant but lets hear some names

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I find this an interesting take because they are two of the players that put forth a pretty consistent effort and play strong two way games.

Why do you think they are the problem with the culture, apart from the fact that they've been around for a long time?

The Flames have consistently wilted under pressure going back over a decade and as the elder statesmen both have proven not to be part of that solution. Also neither have been good in the playoffs. One thing we are seeing with the Habs and Islanders is that teams lacking elite talent need their shutdown forwards to get the job done in the postseason and Backlund has never been able to do that in the playoffs. The burden has always been on the 1st line to outscore the opponents and as we see in the playoffs even elite 1st lines get shut down quite frequently. If I took over the team today I would ship them both out and not because I don't like them and more that it's time to move on as the sooner the Flames can distance themselves from their past the sooner they will move forward.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL. Backlund's contract is value when compared to his peers in production and role. Karlsson is a 2C. he doesn't play on the top line. And if you think his production is an example, he scores about the same and is paid about the same.

But thanks for moving the goalposts into PO production. I'm sure that Karlsson's post season production has nothing to do with the fact he doesn't have to check the opposition top line.

Yep maybe we should really put more value on exhibition season. I know that is not part of the Flames culture BUT Playoff hockey is 10 time more important and better than regular season hockey.

The best Flames team (2004) in the last 20 years was extraordinary simply because of their playoff performance. Are you going to say that the 2018-19 team with its 107 points was a better team than the 04 team with its 94 pts?

Not even close... What special achievements, moments can you recall from 2019? Not at all as many as 2004.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Really?

Then why are the Flames one of the worst franchises in the league over Backlund's signing a core level contract 2015-16

#25 in Playoff wins #24 in playoff games played

#21 in regular season winning %

Winning teams have players that have value contracts. Backlund is a solid 2nd line centre compared to the other 2nd line centres on the also ran teams.

The Flames have seldom been in a position where Backlund could prove his worth. Lowry is a far better 3C than Backlund because he actually shut down McDavid in important games.

Lowry is costing the Jets 2M/ yr less than Backlund over the next 3 years.

I don't think anyone can really totally shut down McDavid other than shutting down all the passing lanes for his wingers, which the Jets did well.

In terms of Backlund, he'd be a typical Sutter 2nd/3rd line center. I don't think he's that bad. What's bad is how inconsistent the first two lines are and how many holes they have throughout their lineups from 1st line through to the 4th line and in their defensive corps. It's gonna get worse with this expansion draft. Backlund does add depth for the Flames D, which the Flames aren't really lacking. Their issues are on consistency and lack of right hand shot point guards and forwards. And now, a frickin backup goalie!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yep maybe we should really put more value on exhibition season. I know that is not part of the Flames culture BUT Playoff hockey is 10 time more important and better than regular season hockey...

You just don't get it. You refuse to listen to people after years of explaining this to you over and over and over again.

The thing is, irrespective of how important you, or I, or the Flames, or any other team considers playoff performances, NHL player and contract valuations continue to be based on regular season performance. So, in any discussion surrounding a player's performance relative to his cap hit, this is how it is measured. It just is. It has been this way for years, and it doesn't look to be changing any time soon; it just doesn't make any sense to use different criteria in making these evaluations from those that everyone in the League continues to employ.

[Strange Brew]

It's a fool's errand to try to pinpoint blame for Flames shortcomings on one or two players. I can come up with a good argument to defend every last one of them.

Seems to me the best teams decide who they are building around and move on from the others, getting the most they can. And they're not afraid to switch direction if it's not working.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You just don't get it. You refuse to listen to people after years of explaining this to you over and over and over again.

The thing is, irrespective of how important you, or I, or the Flames, or any other team considers playoff performances, NHL player and contract valuations continue to be based on regular season performance. So, in any discussion surrounding a player's performance relative to his cap hit, this is how it is measured. It just is. It has been this way for years, and it doesn't look to be changing any time soon; it just doesn't make any sense to use different criteria in making these evaluations from those that everyone in the League continues to employ.

Are you suggesting that a GM would not pay more for a player who constantly ups his game in the playoffs, vs. A player with identical regular season stats but who disappears come playoff time.


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