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Old 09-23-2021, 01:06 PM   #1
GGG
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So with all the elections and some comments in the tax the rich thread I started thinking about the underlying philosophy of why people vote for who they do rather than who people vote for.

I broke down into two generalized groups of people

- Do you vote in direct self interest? Vote for more taxation and services if you pay below median. Vote for daycare because you have kids, vote for low taxes because you have money? Vote against daycare because your kids are in schools

Or

- Do you vote for a set of outcomes that you believe will be best for the country / Province / city

And if you vote based on the first do you believe it facilities the second and if you vote for the second are you actually still voting in self interest because creating the best country will create opportunity for you and a better place to live which is ultimately self serving.

For me I vote based on the second routinely voting against my pocket book for abstract outcomes but I still view this to be a vote in self interest as my vote is to build the society I want to live in as opposed to ensuring I maximize my share of whatever society is producing.

I suppose there is a third category as well that very few would likely admit to being in and that’s I vote for my team. It also might be that we all just vote for our team and then rationalize from there.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:11 PM   #2
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:14 PM   #3
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For me I vote based on the second routinely voting against my pocket book for abstract outcomes and I still view this to be a vote in self interest as my vote is to build the society I want to live in as opposed to ensuring I maximize my share of whatever society is producing.
This. I could never imagine voting for a single issue, like cheap daycare, while ignoring the rest of the platform. Gotta think bigger picture.

This federal election covid played a huge part but most often it would be a balance of fiscal and social policies.

I also vote thru the lens of balancing preferred outcomes and credibility. I probably align more closely with the ndp than anyone else, they’re just so damned bad at being politicians, no matter how hip and woke Singh is on social media, that I can never vote for them in their current form.

I would never vote along party lines for the sake of it.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:14 PM   #4
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I suspect that many people who vote for things like low taxes will do so arguing that it is the outcome that they believe is best for society. I think it's tough for people to acknowledge that what is best for them might not be best for others. And I'm not immune from this either. I might vote municipally against expanded suburbs, and I can either justify that vote based on the fact that it's better for me as a taxpayer, or I think it's better for the society of the city to not just constantly expand and become increasingly more resource inefficient. The truth is probably it's a bit of both that is driving my vote.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:17 PM   #5
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I vote by first excluding everyone who I though was corrupt or whose actions should have been considered criminal and then choosing based on policy after that, with some heavy strategic voting considerations mixed in.

Ie in Ward 2 I'm voting wyness without really any details on her policy, because she has the best chance of defeating Magliocca.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:17 PM   #6
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Mostly the second, though I definitely had self interest involved this election relating to how the parties viewed Covid. Though that has a lot of benefits to society as well.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:18 PM   #7
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:21 PM   #8
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I am a single issue voter.

I vote for which ever party has the best environmentalist policy.


This is based on three factors.


1. I am economically and culturally secure (as in not under threat).
2. Canadian politics are so moderate that the difference between parties is relatively small. If a party were to stray from this I wouldn't vote for them.
3. I live in rural alberta and the same party always wins by a landslide.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:21 PM   #9
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I like to find out who Stickman has a beef with and then vote for them.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:25 PM   #10
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On a related note, I'd be very interested in knowing how people decide which issues are important when they're voting?

How do you weight climate change policy vs tax policy vs foreign policy vs covid policy etc. So far I haven't found any platforms that agree with all of my opinions.

As an example: I think the government's record on Afghanistan was very poor, as we had a lot of people who risked their lives helping Canadians who the government abandoned. I think that's a moral failing that is borderline disqualifying to lead. But obviously that isn't how Canadians as a whole felt about it, and it was barely even an issue during the campaign even though it broke after the election was called. Is that Canadians just giving a big FYGM to people who don't look like them and live somewhere else, or did voters decide that other policy factors (daycare, COVID, etc) were more important?

How do you weigh something like "I agree with their position on gun control and climate change" against "I think this tax policy is better for Canada." Or whatever issue is important to you.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:26 PM   #11
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Whatever platform is best, on the whole, for my family.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:27 PM   #12
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I feel sad about it.

I used to naively believe governments would actually govern and act in the best interests of their citizens based on philosophical ideals.

None of these parties on the whole are made of people I support. To me, it's clearly a game of grifting and/or raising taxes while providing a fraction of services.

Along the way, the plebes are pitted against each other and are kept busy by calling each other names.

What I can support, however, is steering very clear from a two-party system. Generally, I now vote for the third party as long as it's not something insane like the PPC or whatever Larry Heather would want.

Municipally, I voted for Chabot last time, NDP federally recently, Liberals provincially, etc... If the Conservatives somehow dropped to the third choice, I'd vote for them too. I just want a more fulsome and sane spectrum of choice.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizaro86 View Post
On a related note, I'd be very interested in knowing how people decide which issues are important when they're voting?

How do you weight climate change policy vs tax policy vs foreign policy vs covid policy etc. So far I haven't found any platforms that agree with all of my opinions.

As an example: I think the government's record on Afghanistan was very poor, as we had a lot of people who risked their lives helping Canadians who the government abandoned. I think that's a moral failing that is borderline disqualifying to lead. But obviously that isn't how Canadians as a whole felt about it, and it was barely even an issue during the campaign even though it broke after the election was called. Is that Canadians just giving a big FYGM to people who don't look like them and live somewhere else, or did voters decide that other policy factors (daycare, COVID, etc) were more important?

How do you weigh something like "I agree with their position on gun control and climate change" against "I think this tax policy is better for Canada." Or whatever issue is important to you.
So in essense, I see that you have pointed concerns related to Social, Environmental, and Economic policies.

I am first Economic, second Social, third Environmental, though the Social and Environmental are very close together. IMO, I relate this to Maslow's heirachy in that there needs to be a base in order to address other needs. For example, people need money in order to address Social and Envrironmental concerns. Everything costs money, so for me, Economic policy is the most important. It's not really that simple, but that's a bit how my needs in politics lie.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krynski View Post
So in essense, I see that you have pointed concerns related to Social, Environmental, and Economic policies.

I am first Economic, second Social, third Environmental, though the Social and Environmental are very close together. IMO, I relate this to Maslow's heirachy in that there needs to be a base in order to address other needs. For example, people need money in order to address Social and Envrironmental concerns. Everything costs money, so for me, Economic policy is the most important. It's not really that simple, but that's a bit how my needs in politics lie.
I'm somewhat similar but my reasoning is different.

The Economy is something that benefits everyone and where the Government can have a direct and immediate influence.

A Constant Current Factor.

Social progress takes time and participation, but further, social progress is smoother and easier within a prosperous society, so if the Economy is doing well, people arent struggling then social progress is more likely to be embraced.

Mid-Term Factor.

Environment. Happy and prosperous people will be more willing to divert their energies to more complex tasks.

Long-Term Factor.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:47 PM   #15
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Anyone who is not a Manning Institute shill.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:48 PM   #16
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I have a few issues that are of significant interest to me. I eliminate any party that has a platform that either goes against those beliefs or ignores them. For me it's more a process of elimination.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:10 PM   #17
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Following politics for most of my life has brought me to the realization that the only power that a person realistically has at the ballot box is to use their vote as a harm reduction mechanism. That is, you look at the parties that have a realistic chance of winning, figure out which one of those would do the least amount of good for society as a whole, and you vote for the party most likely to defeat them. Simple harm reduction, nothing more, nothing less.
Bringing about changes that go beyond that, involves winning over hearts & minds, and convincing people to support certain policies. For example, there was once a time where it was believed that the only way to get climate action was to elect the Green party. Then, as time went on and more people understood the need for urgent action, the larger parties adopted carbon pricing into their policy platforms. This is how social progress happens - it's not always about electing the "correct" politician or party.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:14 PM   #18
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Socially, I vote based on what I think is in societies best interest going forward. Fiscally and economically, I probably vote with my wallet. I'm not going to try to pretend that there's a great amount of altruism there, because at the end of the day I won't vote against my own best interest.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod View Post
Following politics for most of my life has brought me to the realization that the only power that a person realistically has at the ballot box is to use their vote as a harm reduction mechanism. That is, you look at the parties that have a realistic chance of winning, figure out which one of those would do the least amount of good for society as a whole, and you vote for the party most likely to defeat them. Simple harm reduction, nothing more, nothing less.
Bringing about changes that go beyond that, involves winning over hearts & minds, and convincing people to support certain policies. For example, there was once a time where it was believed that the only way to get climate action was to elect the Green party. Then, as time went on and more people understood the need for urgent action, the larger parties adopted carbon pricing into their policy platforms. This is how social progress happens - it's not always about electing the "correct" politician or party.
IMO you have oversimplified the process… yet captured the essence of how Canada seems to be set up. I’d love to argue the minutiae and get deep in policies (who am I kidding, to be real). Fact is there isn’t actual balance, we may not like a specific leader but their party aligns best, or simply you don’t want XYZ to win so instead of voting for your preferred Mr.6thPlace (which is like wasting a vote especially if you strongly dislike #1) you consider voting for #2 or 3 and hope that works out better.

For this past election… not enough people voted (less than 2/4 actually) and so Mr Socks (aka Turdeau) remained in place despite not even getting the popular vote. At least it’s a minority government so hopefully UCP and NDP will hold them to some account although NDP didn’t provide any opposition it seems the last few years.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:44 PM   #20
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I vote for what I think will provide the best future for the younger generation. Generally that means what’s best for society now.
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