2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[bax]

Originally Posted by Jore

Getting and developing a good centre is a long-standing weakness for this franchise. The best all-arounder they've developed is Backlund (not counting Monahan for obvious reasons), before that it was probably David Moss. Right now the most promising young player who was drafted as a centre, Dube, they're playing on as a 4th line winger (sound familiar?). Unless they're drafting a can't miss centre at 1 or 2 I can't see this organization being able to support and develop a #1 centre internally.

It's a fair criticism, but you can apply it league wide as well. How many teams have drafted and developed a top line center that wasn't a top 5 pick?

Mark Schiefele
Sean Couturier
Patrice Bergeron
Brayden Point
Mathew Barzal

I count 5 and even then that's a pretty shaky list. The only sure fire number 1 there is Bergeron.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by bax

It's a fair criticism, but you can apply it league wide as well. How many teams have drafted and developed a top line center that wasn't a top 5 pick?

Mark Schiefele
Sean Couturier
Patrice Bergeron
Brayden Point
Mathew Barzal

I count 5 and even then that's a pretty shaky list. The only sure fire number 1 there is Bergeron.

Point, Barzal, and Schiefele are for sure #1s. Some more are Aho, Kopitar (back in the day), O'Reilly. Zibanejad and Hertl are better than the centres the Flames have drafted and developed in the last few decades. How many teams can say they haven't drafted, developed, or acquired a #1 C for thirty years?

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jore

Point, Barzal, and Schiefele are for sure #1s. Some more are Aho, Kopitar (back in the day), O'Reilly. Zibanejad and Hertl are better than the centres the Flames have drafted and developed in the last few decades. How many teams can say they haven't drafted, developed, or acquired a #1 C for thirty years?

Drafted and developed by 1 team so hard to include zibanejad. Hertl is good but really not a for sure first line center. We trade monahan for hertl and we still aren’t a playoff team.

Of course there are players taken late in the first or beyond that become stars but if you want a top franchise center you more than likely need to draft it early as all teams want the same thing and those players and top d men go early every year

[bax]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Drafted and developed by 1 team so hard to include zibanejad. Hertl is good but really not a for sure first line center. We trade monahan for hertl and we still aren’t a playoff team.

Of course there are players taken late in the first or beyond that become stars but if you want a top franchise center you more than likely need to draft it early as all teams want the same thing and those players and top d men go early every year

I have a hard time including Zibanejad in the sure fire top line center group too. When he is on he is great, but for the first half the season he was defensive liability who wasn't scoring.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Bubbsy you say the organization has been doing the same thing for 3 decades?

What do people think happened from 2013-2016? They drafted top 6 3x in that case and also traded their 15th overall pick for a top 10 pick from 4 drafts prior.

Do you want them to do what the Oiler and Sabres did which is shamelessly admit they are tanking? Look at those organizations it took the Oilers 6 years after drafting a once in a decade player to appear to not be a complete tire fire. Buffalo has been tanking for 7 years and are still a complete mess. A market like Calgary is begging to enter that despair if they make the same move.

The thing is, I don't think Buffalo (or most teams for that matter) tank on purpose. Buffalo has been in the tank, but were they "tanking"? I don't think so. They made some pretty big transactions and signings over that period that indicate they were trying to compete (O'Reilly, E. Kane, Moulson, Legwand, Bogosian, Gionta, Skinner, Hall, Vesey). All they really ended up doing was drafting between the top 5-10 instead of adding more top 5 picks. If they hadn't resisted, they could very well have one or all of Matthews, Makar and J. Hughes. If anything, Buffalo is an example of what happens when you try to stop what can't be stopped.

Are the Flames passed the point of no return? I don't know, but I am leaning that way.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by bax

I have a hard time including Zibanejad in the sure fire top line center group too. When he is on he is great, but for the first half the season he was defensive liability who wasn't scoring.

He isn’t normally though. He plays a heavy game and when he isn’t scoring he’s laying the body and overall being a pain to play against.

He is one of the players reported to have had lingering Covid-19 struggles to start the season.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by bax

I have a hard time including Zibanejad in the sure fire top line center group too. When he is on he is great, but for the first half the season he was defensive liability who wasn't scoring.

That's what makes evaluating players so difficult and why so many different posters have different opinions.

The situation a player in can change their value. I singled out Hertl on that list but if Hertl got traded to the Rangers for Zibanejad would Hertl be putting up big numbers and would Zibanejad look like a 2nd line center at best with the Sharks? It's very possible that would happen.

But this same logic can be applied to the Flames players too. Someone on this team or a few players on this team are better than the appear right now and some players are worse than we think too. Nobody seems to agree on who are the players that worse than we think they are and sometimes the players just don't fit together too but it will be interesting to see who the Flames move out and what the impact is. I personally feel Johnny is a good player but not as good as he gets credit for and if we got a good return for him I wouldn't be shocked if we didn't miss him as much as some think.

I'm very interested in Bennett and how he plays right now. It's early but he has 5 points in 3 games so far playing with Huberdeau. But 2 games were against Columbus so may be he won't keep it up and maybe he would never do this with us but it could show he had it in him but it never looked like he did because our top guys just might not be as good as we think they are.

But then again maybe playing with Huberdeau is just a better fit too. It will be very disappointing for this team though if he lights it up in FLA

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The thing is, I don't think Buffalo (or most teams for that matter) tank on purpose. Buffalo has been in the tank, but were they "tanking"? I don't think so. They made some pretty big transactions and signings over that period that indicate they were trying to compete (O'Reilly, E. Kane, Moulson, Legwand, Bogosian, Gionta, Skinner, Hall, Vesey). All they really ended up doing was drafting between the top 5-10 instead of adding more top 5 picks. If they hadn't resisted, they could very well have one or all of Matthews, Makar and J. Hughes. If anything, Buffalo is an example of what happens when you try to stop what can't be stopped.

Are the Flames passed the point of no return? I don't know, but I am leaning that way.

Buffalo was 100% tanking in the 14 and 15 seasons with the goal of getting McDavid or Eichel and I agree they made moves to add pieces. Kane was acquired in a hockey deal that included older players like Myers, Stafford in addition to Armia. Skinner was acquired for peanuts, Hall was a free agent.

I think the key here is when an organization accepts a losing culture and they are in a crap market it is a recipe for an extended time at the bottom. I agree with you say about trying to stop what can’t be stopped because the organization is rotten.

The lottery was changed so teams like Buffalo, Arizona, and Edmonton no longer shamelessly ranked but now they are reverting back because too many bad teams are losing the lottery and are stuck because they end up picking 4th instead of 1st.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It was a good interview. Sutter made an interesting comment in that he feels the team wasn't prepared to play the same teams over and over. Made the comment that it's easy to go out of conference, sneak into a building and come out with a win but playing the same team night after night is more difficult. Kind of makes sense as this team has had decent regular season success only to go out easily in the playoffs.

Wouldn’t that be the same for other teams too?

Seems like a weak made up excuse.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Wouldn’t that be the same for other teams too?

Seems like a weak made up excuse.


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It depends on how easy your team is to play against once you know their tendencies.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It depends on how easy your team is to play against once you know their tendencies.

I’m guessing that when Sutter mentions “lack of preparation “, he is NOT talking about the Xs and Os of what the other team or his team is doing.

He’s talking about the mental and emotional preparation that it takes to create the optimum battle , compete and work levels when playing the same team, each game of a 3 game set.

I suspect this is a big part of your inference when you say “how easy your team is to play against”.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I honestly don’t even want Jack Eichel if all it’s going to do is create holes every where else.

I do.

Those holes can be filled, even if not immediately.

#1C cannot.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Why does him having a full NTC mean he wouldn't accept a trade here? Do you know the player personally? We have no idea what is going on with him or how he feels about the Blues, Flames, or being open to a trade.

There's no reason to believe he's unhappy in STL. I know nothing about him personally. A quick google tells me he sold his mansion in the outskirts and moved into STL. Who knows? Neither GM is going to waste much time discussing it, though.

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Something something “taxes”, and “Calgary sucks”. You know, the typical nonsense.

No, the Flames suck.

Originally Posted by Jore

Point, Barzal, and Schiefele are for sure #1s. Some more are Aho, Kopitar (back in the day), O'Reilly. Zibanejad and Hertl are better than the centres the Flames have drafted and developed in the last few decades. How many teams can say they haven't drafted, developed, or acquired a #1 C for thirty years?

Krejci, Getzlaf. Brad Richards. Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Larkin

Since Datsyuk, it's been nearly impossible to find a top6 C outside the top 100 picks. Pavelski and Any McDonald the borderline exceptions.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I do.

Those holes can be filled, even if not immediately.

#1C cannot.

Even if it cost Tkachuk/Lindholm + Hanifin/Valimaki + picks+prospects, our D and G would still be miles ahead of BUF's.

Move out Johnny, Sean, and Gio to plug holes and re-stock the cupboards.


It probably wouldn't work, but better odds than nibbling around the edges.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It depends on how easy your team is to play against once you know their tendencies.

Calgary’s tendencies have’s really changed for a number of years. Teams are heavily scouted at the worst of times. I doubt anyone is sneaking into any away game and fooling anyone.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Calgary’s tendencies have’s really changed for a number of years. Teams are heavily scouted at the worst of times. I doubt anyone is sneaking into any away game and fooling anyone.


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True. But you can know what McDavid is going to do (who doesn’t) or what Matthews and Marner like to do and still not stop them, because their skill overcomes it. Not so here. You game plan for Gaudreau’s game, or Tkachuk’s game, or Monahan’s game, and generally, you can stop them because they both have no counter and no physical ability to play through that checking.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It was a good interview. Sutter made an interesting comment in that he feels the team wasn't prepared to play the same teams Ottawa over and over. Made the comment that it's easy to go out of conference, sneak into a building and come out with a win but playing the same team night after night is more difficult. Kind of makes sense as this team has had decent regular season success only to go out easily in the playoffs.

Fixed that for you.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I do.

Those holes can be filled, even if not immediately.

#1C cannot.

Can they? Where's our first line, right-shot, natural RW? We can't even get one now... how are we going to get one, plus fill all the other holes created by all the pieces we'd have to give up to get Eichel?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by timbit

I’m guessing that when Sutter mentions “lack of preparation “, he is NOT talking about the Xs and Os of what the other team or his team is doing.

He’s talking about the mental and emotional preparation that it takes to create the optimum battle , compete and work levels when playing the same team, each game of a 3 game set.

I suspect this is a big part of your inference when you say “how easy your team is to play against”.

Yeah I think it’s a euphemism for being a pro. The Florida Panthers probably aren’t all amped against the Flames as an example and you don’t need to be at your best necessarily to win.

In a short season against the same teams, seems to me a lack of will and want is going to get exposed more consistently.

Really other than the 60 games in the Peters season hasn’t that always been the issue here? And just gets magnified in the playoffs when finding 5 on 5 offense seems as hard as climbing Everest because the other team is actually playing with max effort and focus.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Can they? Where's our first line, right-shot, natural RW? We can't even get one now... how are we going to get one, plus fill all the other holes created by all the pieces we'd have to give up to get Eichel?

Even if it takes time building for a few years through the draft, free agency, etc-you do it for the ultimate luxury of being one of the few teams that have that rare #1C. It won't take every roster player we have, but it would take a few of the good ones-which would still leave us with enough assets to fill out the roster, until the time comes when you can upgrade if necessary.