CBE Results in Decline

[SeeGeeWhy]

I can't blame teachers for any of this. The results seem like a reflection of the state of overall cultural changes that have been accelerated in concert with the ramp up of the internet age.

We are all deeply manipulated, dopamine-addled device junkies - now starting from age 2.

Culture preference bends towards a desire to exist in online space more often than meat space.

Communication preference bend towards lo-literacy symbology or conversation rather than text or numeracy.

Thought work is increasingly being outsourced to digital search tools, which are built on largely archaic infrastructures that will not be (easily) replaceable when they do inevitably fail.

Skill development continues to be outsourced to low status classes or "automation" because no one wants to be caught dead in those castes.

Status games and tribe signaling behaviours are soaked in feels and vibes with a preference towards non-confrontational violence and subject to super rapid context-shaping where words have completely different meanings depending on who uses them, or worse yet, no meaning at all. Truths are manufactured rather than revealed, and these rarely survive contact with extra-human reality, but who GAF so long as your team is bigger than the other side?

Effort-Reward pathways are so hammered that very few people bother to decline the easy to access, mid-grade good feelings for harder, high quality good feelings and the risks associated with that path. Moving towards a permanent state of empty satiation with zero nourishment or true contentment, and no capacity to self-regulate or process stress functionally.

Abrahamic Faith systems ushered in an era of individualism that was revolutionary and vital in many respects, but our own technology has hyper-stimulated this movement to a point of deep self-centeredness. We are abandoning important tenets of sacrifice, faith, forgiveness or pursuit of creating for the sake of celebrating the glory and beauty of it all.

The economic system is designed to focus on maximizing present value of violence backed fiat accumulation, willfully ignoring the true source of growth or the deeply meaningful purpose money has in fostering connection to one another now and in the future, or to our collective and personal integrity.

We have such a deep buffer of people that we can lose to the consequences of these choices that it doesn't really impact those who get to continue.

Intergenerational connection suffers deeply from all of these forces. Parent-aged groups don't seem to connect with their elders, each other, or their children deeply at the moment. Maybe I am alone in this, but this seems true.

The school system is... just completely antiquated compared to the way the world is. I cannot expect teachers to adapt in any meaningful way when the stated outcomes of the higher order system are so disconnected with what the world is actually like.

Are there opportunities waiting on the other side that align with what the system is designed to produce? What does getting into a "good" post-secondary program even mean anymore? Does being competent matter?

The decline of these measures don't matter at all. It pays to be stupid in today's world.

The School System has basically become nothing more than a publicly-funded daycare program at scale, focused on enabling the individual pursuits of parents and it's administrators rather than creating positive impacts on the future of it's students or the communities they are embedded in.

But that's what we want. So that's what we get.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Links?

Learning declines do predate Covid, so there are likely other factors at work. But there’s a wealth of evidence that disruption from schools closure and remote learning during the pandemic have had substantial long-term impacts on learning.

It's in the 2022 PISA report, but it's a bit long and dense. Here's a press release about it.

I've also seen this chart which shows the correlation between declines in PISA scores and the % of students whose schools were closed for 3+ months. Pretty flat, and it actually shows a slight negative correlation.

Iceland is a good example of the counterintuitive results; they saw the single biggest drop between 2018 and 2022 in mathematics performance of any country, but their schools never really closed due to COVID. Sweden too saw significant drops in performance (well above OECD average drops) and they were the poster child of limited measures in response to COVID.

What’s your theory about the reasons for declining outcomes? Do you think Covid had an impact at all?

Long term, my guess it has something to do with increasing economic inequality along with the rise of smart phones and social media use among kids.

And COVID absolutely had an impact; there's no question of that. I just don't think the evidence suggests that it was primarily something that was policy driven as it relates to school closures. Even where they remained open during acute phases of the pandemic, learning was still disrupted.

The evidence from around the world is clear that even absent government restrictions, most people adjusted their activities in response to COVID. For instance, Florida was basically open season after the spring of 2020, yet population mobility was still down about 50% in the 1-2 years after. So while schools may have been open for longer in places with fewer restrictions, it's not like they were operating as normal. Absenteeism due to illness or exposure was still high, extracurricular activities were limited, and students would have far less interaction with friends and extended family.

Basically, there's no counterfactual scenario where schools could have been kept open the whole time and learning proceeded as normal. And given the negative correlation in the 2022 PISA results, you might even be able to argue that the societal impact of widespread infections and death in the acute phase of the pandemic had a bigger impact on learning than a few extra weeks of school closures. This is backed up by the fact that most of the most resilient education systems (Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, etc.) had very low mortality rates, even while their school closure policies varied.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

I can't blame teachers for any of this. The results seem like a reflection of the state of overall cultural changes that have been accelerated in concert with the ramp up of the internet age.

We are all deeply manipulated, dopamine-addled device junkies - now starting from age 2.

Culture preference bends towards a desire to exist in online space more often than meat space.

Communication preference bend towards lo-literacy symbology or conversation rather than text or numeracy.

Thought work is increasingly being outsourced to digital search tools, which are built on largely archaic infrastructures that will not be (easily) replaceable when they do inevitably fail.

Skill development continues to be outsourced to low status classes or "automation" because no one wants to be caught dead in those castes.

Status games and tribe signaling behaviours are soaked in feels and vibes with a preference towards non-confrontational violence and subject to super rapid context-shaping where words have completely different meanings depending on who uses them, or worse yet, no meaning at all. Truths are manufactured rather than revealed, and these rarely survive contact with extra-human reality, but who GAF so long as your team is bigger than the other side?

Effort-Reward pathways are so hammered that very few people bother to decline the easy to access, mid-grade good feelings for harder, high quality good feelings and the risks associated with that path. Moving towards a permanent state of empty satiation with zero nourishment or true contentment, and no capacity to self-regulate or process stress functionally.

Abrahamic Faith systems ushered in an era of individualism that was revolutionary and vital in many respects, but our own technology has hyper-stimulated this movement to a point of deep self-centeredness. We are abandoning important tenets of sacrifice, faith, forgiveness or pursuit of creating for the sake of celebrating the glory and beauty of it all.

The economic system is designed to focus on maximizing present value of violence backed fiat accumulation, willfully ignoring the true source of growth or the deeply meaningful purpose money has in fostering connection to one another now and in the future, or to our collective and personal integrity.

We have such a deep buffer of people that we can lose to the consequences of these choices that it doesn't really impact those who get to continue.

Intergenerational connection suffers deeply from all of these forces. Parent-aged groups don't seem to connect with their elders, each other, or their children deeply at the moment. Maybe I am alone in this, but this seems true.

The school system is... just completely antiquated compared to the way the world is. I cannot expect teachers to adapt in any meaningful way when the stated outcomes of the higher order system are so disconnected with what the world is actually like.

Are there opportunities waiting on the other side that align with what the system is designed to produce? What does getting into a "good" post-secondary program even mean anymore? Does being competent matter?

The decline of these measures don't matter at all. It pays to be stupid in today's world.

The School System has basically become nothing more than a publicly-funded daycare program at scale, focused on enabling the individual pursuits of parents and it's administrators rather than creating positive impacts on the future of it's students or the communities they are embedded in.

But that's what we want. So that's what we get.

Everyone knows I love cynicism but this is another level. Schools have nothing to do with educating kids nowadays? Not been my experience.

Are there problems? Yes. But this is hyperbolic.

[Point Blank]

I do agree to some extent that the schooling model is not meeting the needs of students. But in order to move ahead with what we need students to acquire to be successful citizens requires us to envision that school might have to look very different than what we think and value today. Standardized tests that assess memorization skills still appear to be the only way we communicate performance with the public. Test scores being down are instantly reported by news outlets because it’s easy and an engaging topic.
And while test scores are important, it is so heavily emphasized as a metric of learning that teachers are afraid to do anything that would deviate from making students memorize how to write a diploma exam; instead of teaching conceptually or trying to connect their classroom concepts to the outside world in problem solving scenarios. Every grade 12 teacher knows that their class’ diploma test marks become publicly available information and are analyzed by administration and downtown management. It is an immense amount of pressure that pushes teacher to teach students how to write a multiple choice test.

I’ll say I haven’t met a single parent who does not want their child to develop sustainable learning skills to be successful in the workplace, but in the same vein, many parents will also get mad when school boards try new practices to modernize the system. The loudest voices are often coming from parents who were successful in their own schooling experience, and see any changes as unnecessary. Parents who grew up disenfranchised by school will often not talk about it because it was such a terrible experience for them.

There are so many other metrics of high school success that I wish we would discuss, but those aren’t as flashy as test scores. I also will say CBE management is getting better at looking at these alternative metrics. I wish we would move beyond rote memorization, but I just don’t think the public, especially in this province, is ready to see this change.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Everyone knows I love cynicism but this is another level. Schools have nothing to do with educating kids nowadays? Not been my experience.

Are there problems? Yes. But this is hyperbolic.

I am not well.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by fotze2

When do you think teachers can be replaced by AI?

It happened many years ago in a land not very dissimilar from this one...

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

I do agree to some extent that the schooling model is not meeting the needs of students. But in order to move ahead with what we need students to acquire to be successful citizens requires us to envision that school might have to look very different than what we think and value today. Standardized tests that assess memorization skills still appear to be the only way we communicate performance with the public. Test scores being down are instantly reported by news outlets because it’s easy and an engaging topic.
And while test scores are important, it is so heavily emphasized as a metric of learning that teachers are afraid to do anything that would deviate from making students memorize how to write a diploma exam; instead of teaching conceptually or trying to connect their classroom concepts to the outside world in problem solving scenarios. Every grade 12 teacher knows that their class’ diploma test marks become publicly available information and are analyzed by administration and downtown management. It is an immense amount of pressure that pushes teacher to teach students how to write a multiple choice test.

I’ll say I haven’t met a single parent who does not want their child to develop sustainable learning skills to be successful in the workplace, but in the same vein, many parents will also get mad when school boards try new practices to modernize the system. The loudest voices are often coming from parents who were successful in their own schooling experience, and see any changes as unnecessary. Parents who grew up disenfranchised by school will often not talk about it because it was such a terrible experience for them.

There are so many other metrics of high school success that I wish we would discuss, but those aren’t as flashy as test scores. I also will say CBE management is getting better at looking at these alternative metrics. I wish we would move beyond rote memorization, but I just don’t think the public, especially in this province, is ready to see this change.

I don’t feel like kids in high school today are doing a lot of rote memorization though. Classes like bio, sure there’s a lot of memorization because of the topic and what’s needed. But a lot of the other classes are focused on themes and ideas and not just on the “facts” that people just Google these days.

[spotthefan]

I work in education and have a significant say in the operations of it a school but not with the CBE. This is not solely a CBE issue but truly an indication of a confluence of issues colliding all at once.

1. Kids are different for a variety of reasons. The generation as a whole has grown up differently than even those 5-8 years ago. It is extremely hard for a system to adapt to change that fast, even if a majority of teachers and staff adapt as best they can (and they do).

Secondly to this, the pandemic had a significant effect on students and specifically kids between 8-16 years old. They are struggling most. That isn't an argument for or against how the pandemic was handled it is just a reality statement.

2. Inclusion is perhaps the single most important adaptation the system has made in the last 20 years. It had to happen. Unfortunately the societal support for inclusion hasn't occurred to properly support it. I've seen amazing learning and developmental success for students of all abilities in a mainstream school. I've seen neurotypical and physically typical students become more understanding, compassionate and inclusive of differences. I've seen cultural differences be celebrated and honoured.

I've also seen specific kids suffer and fail because the supports needed to be successful aren't available to them. Related i've seen the education of the majority be greatly inhibited by the behaviour of a few.

3. Government policies and funding. Over the last 15 years we've gone from support for small class sizes, individualized services for those in need (including speech) and investment in improvement in schools to severely underfunded students, services, and supports. In my district the equivalent of 700 kids do not receive funding.

Government initiatives and beliefs come and go, that is natural. Even when it was the PC governments we would see pendulum swings on certain issues or topics. However, we are no so drastically impacted by small minded beliefs around education and students that it is causing unnecessary and undue stress on schools.

4. A stressed out and thinning labour force. Some may not like this at all but the truth is there is a teacher and support shortage in Alberta (and elsewhere). We go days with sub shortages causing class changes, teacher changes, planning changes, and increased supervision. This is exhausting for everyone involved and if you know anything about kids its that if you change their routines and expected people, it causes problems.

5. Changing family expectations and value on education. This is a big one. There is a lack of trust in education and belief in its value - some of that the education sector must own. Some of that is beyond our control. I've been told more frequently in the last few years that I can't do something that is so clearly outlined in policy, procedures, AND legislation. Related students are gaslighting more than ever. Simplistic but true: "You need to stop talking while I do" - "i'm not talking!" when you are literally standing there watching them talk.

6. Because of 1-5 we've lost our purpose in education and what school is for, academic success and learning. I do not like the conservative governments of the last 5 years but one thing I can't argue with is a desire to ensure students are learning. There are things we need to do better in schools but unfortunately until 1-5 are helped, that will be a struggle.

It is a very difficult occupation to be in right now.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

I do agree to some extent that the schooling model is not meeting the needs of students. But in order to move ahead with what we need students to acquire to be successful citizens requires us to envision that school might have to look very different than what we think and value today. Standardized tests that assess memorization skills still appear to be the only way we communicate performance with the public. Test scores being down are instantly reported by news outlets because it’s easy and an engaging topic.
And while test scores are important, it is so heavily emphasized as a metric of learning that teachers are afraid to do anything that would deviate from making students memorize how to write a diploma exam; instead of teaching conceptually or trying to connect their classroom concepts to the outside world in problem solving scenarios. Every grade 12 teacher knows that their class’ diploma test marks become publicly available information and are analyzed by administration and downtown management. It is an immense amount of pressure that pushes teacher to teach students how to write a multiple choice test.

I’ll say I haven’t met a single parent who does not want their child to develop sustainable learning skills to be successful in the workplace, but in the same vein, many parents will also get mad when school boards try new practices to modernize the system. The loudest voices are often coming from parents who were successful in their own schooling experience, and see any changes as unnecessary. Parents who grew up disenfranchised by school will often not talk about it because it was such a terrible experience for them.

There are so many other metrics of high school success that I wish we would discuss, but those aren’t as flashy as test scores. I also will say CBE management is getting better at looking at these alternative metrics. I wish we would move beyond rote memorization, but I just don’t think the public, especially in this province, is ready to see this change.

Thank you, very interesting. What sort of alternative metrics are you referring to?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Locke

It happened many years ago in a land not very dissimilar from this one...

Spoiler!

I went to school with a guy who chucked a paper airplane from the back of the room, and it went right into the VCR cassette door. Amazing.

He went on to get degrees in engineering and then medicine. I think there's something symbolic somewhere in all of that.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Thank you, very interesting. What sort of alternative metrics are you referring to?

In high school specifically, it should be an extrapolation of multiple data. Including:
- External test scores (eg PAT’s and Diplomas)
- High school graduation rates
- Credits per semester earned
- Attendance
- Student surveys on wellness and their classes
- Extracurricular or club involvement
- Indigenous learner success

These all help paint a picture of the current state of a school. It’s important to consider these because the current high school I work at had historically (as with many high schools) been hyper focused on diploma results. My school in particular has one of the highest diploma marks in the province. But this is misleading because many teachers intentionally push students with low grades out of courses that would lead to higher level diploma courses. So for example, teachers would implement strategies to deflate the confidence of students who might just squeak by with 50’s in Biology 20 and encourage them to drop so that they won’t take Bio 30, many say that they do this to appropriately stream students so that they are more successful in lower courses like Science 20 or 24 and develop their fundamental skills. In some ways that’s true, but I also think there’s a hidden motive to not have those students drag external assessment marks down. I can say anecdotally this is true, as I’ve literally heard a 30 level teacher talk about how diploma marks is what “they” (ie. Admin and downtown) look at and they don’t want kids who just squeaked by. And many times it’s also behaviour related- the teacher just doesn’t want to deal with that kid who’s always on their phone. This has resulted in pretty poor high school completion rates at my school, but on the surface our school is touted as a “top school” by parents who look at rankings by diploma results. Hint- my school is near an affluent area and that’s probably why we have high diploma results. We aren’t doing anything more novel than any other high school in the city.

I teach Bio. I’ve always told my students at the beginning of the year who take Bio 20 that it’s really challenging, but if you want to be here I’ll help you meet your goals. If it’s 90’s or just to pass, you’re welcomed. This does make my job harder because I have a classroom of very diverse levels, but students rarely drop my class and I also have a very low fail rate in my class at the cost of a lower class average on external assessments. From a standardized test perspective, I’d be a poor educator because my diploma results will be lower. But beyond the diploma, I try to implement inclusive strategies to help the students who squeak by, such as having meetings with students who misread a question on a test and give them full credit if they could explain the concepts verbally, allowing phone use during assessments for my ESL students so they can translate my tests when needed, reassessments after every unit to help students identify areas of weakness and try again. Many times student achievement is poor not because of learning, but because of other barriers that I try my best to remove for equal access to learning. These things I offer become very advantageous for my students that are not opportunities offered by external assessments. I have a lot of students who I taught in Bio 20 ask to be in my Bio 30 class, and even though my diploma results might dip because of their inclusion, I think I’m doing right by them by giving everyone a fighting chance to pass Bio all the way to the end. But I can do this because my administration supports this. If they told me I am purely evaluated based on my students’ external assessment marks (which has historically been the case in many schools) then I would have a really hard time with the pressure of those test marks versus what I think is morally the right thing to do.

On the flip side, I would understand why teachers don’t want to implement these inclusive policies. It’s exhausting when you have 100 students all with unique needs. The supports are just not there for me. I also understand why teachers are so entrenched in their beliefs about standardized testing.

Punitive strategies like being inflexible, docking marks for being late, or not allowing reassessments only work for students who are already doing well, have the resources to access learning, and have the resilience to bounce back. The consequence is that students who are most affected by those punitive policies, including those who suffer major life problems in the middle of the year, ESL students, students with mental health problems, students who have to work to support their family, and students with learning disabilities are disenfranchised. But they are also the students who are least likely to complain because they’ve learned through countless negative interactions in the past, either at school or outside of school, not to advocate for themselves. This results in their voices not being heard as much and further inequities because policies aren’t being shaped around them. There are many reasons students don’t achieve high marks, and when I talk to students, lots of it is because they’re being lazy, but a lot more are based on factors beyond their control. But the data that tracks what happens to these students are often overlooked in favor of test scores, which are literally only written by students who could make it all the way to the end of grade 12, and you don’t see data coming from the students who actually need a good and compassionate teacher to complete high school.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

I am not well.

No worries, me neither.

[GGG]

I think for external assessments you’d need to look at grade level improvement per year rather than absolute marks. Teachers have some influence over improvement but absolute score is a function of who is in your class.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

All great stuff

I sincerely appreciate your perspectives.

I’m not a teacher. I’m not really sympathetic to teachers even though I have several in education very close.

My observation is a big problem is that unions administration and advocates all constantly cry wolf and sometimes it’s just life. There is a constant barrage of negativity to rally the troops and at some point by itself that’s exhausting. It’s not actually awful all the time, but if you’re fed that constantly it becomes the rote. Don’t know if you care to comment.

I also think the biggest gap is in leadership at a school and regional level. Parties and unions don’t help but often the leadership is a teacher who got a Masters from Gonzaga and while they might be ambitious educators their job is to be administrators and parent councillors - and there is huge variation school to school based on whether the leadership is a teacher with a pay raise or someone who can lead. The latter is not rewarded but boy seems to make all the difference.

Finally, congrats on being the kind of teacher I hope my kids have.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I sincerely appreciate your perspectives.

I’m not a teacher. I’m not really sympathetic to teachers even though I have several in education very close.

My observation is a big problem is that unions administration and advocates all constantly cry wolf and sometimes it’s just life. There is a constant barrage of negativity to rally the troops and at some point by itself that’s exhausting. It’s not actually awful all the time, but if you’re fed that constantly it becomes the rote. Don’t know if you care to comment.

I also think the biggest gap is in leadership at a school and regional level. Parties and unions don’t help but often the leadership is a teacher who got a Masters from Gonzaga and while they might be ambitious educators their job is to be administrators and parent councillors - and there is huge variation school to school based on whether the leadership is a teacher with a pay raise or someone who can lead. The latter is not rewarded but boy seems to make all the difference.

Finally, congrats on being the kind of teacher I hope my kids have.

I’m pretty indifferent to the union. Like most public awareness campaigns, I feel like it’s easier to pick understandable topics like class sizes as points to rally around. “Decrease class sizes” is easier to understand than “provide more support for increasing complexities in the classroom.” I like the security it provides for me and my family, but dislike how difficult it is to move a subpar teacher out. I also feel like the union gives a voice to counter some voices that vilify my profession, stuff like indoctrination, etc.

I used to work in a very complex school that was very unsafe to be in, kids in the hallways with weapons kind of unsafe. It was very difficult and when I get home from work and hearing narratives that vilify my profession makes it even harder. I could see why people in my profession can become very negative out of that.

My current school is the only one where I’ve enjoyed working with admin, and I totally agree, makes a huge difference. I think a lot of it was their views on students aligns well with mine and I feel supported when disciplinary action must be taken.

Thanks for your kind words!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

I’m pretty indifferent to the union. Like most public awareness campaigns, I feel like it’s easier to pick understandable topics like class sizes as points to rally around. “Decrease class sizes” is easier to understand than “provide more support for increasing complexities in the classroom.” I like the security it provides for me and my family, but dislike how difficult it is to move a subpar teacher out. I also feel like the union gives a voice to counter some voices that vilify my profession, stuff like indoctrination, etc.

I used to work in a very complex school that was very unsafe to be in, kids in the hallways with weapons kind of unsafe. It was very difficult and when I get home from work and hearing narratives that vilify my profession makes it even harder. I could see why people in my profession can become very negative out of that.

My current school is the only one where I’ve enjoyed working with admin, and I totally agree, makes a huge difference. I think a lot of it was their views on students aligns well with mine and I feel supported when disciplinary action must be taken.

Thanks for your kind words!

Where the hell are you? Are you Michelle Pfeiffer in a Gangsta's Paradise?