A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[jammies]

I haven't said much as I didn't catch up to the current episode 'till last night. I'm disappointed. It could have been so much better.

The problem is incoherence and a lack of plausibility. "Plausibility in a fantasy setting? LOL!" Yeah, well, good writing does not violate its own previously established rules, nor does it create new rules at whim outside a coherent structure that supports those new rules. Even in a fantasy, the world, the events, and the characters need to relate in plausible ways as informed by the rules of that fantasy: they might not conform to *this* reality, but they should conform to *a* reality.

This incoherence has happened much more frequently in the last two/three seasons, but the most glaring example is the already-exhaustively discussed ballista vs dragon debacle. That simply could not happen the way it was portrayed. When it happened anyway, onscreen, it jarringly took me out of the story with its objectively bad writing, as bringing down a dragon could have been done any number of other ways that would coherently fit into the world and story, and still served the same narrative purpose.

Such jarring moments are rife now. I won't bother enumerating them, as they have been discussed over and over, but they are there, often, and every time one happens and I notice, it takes me further out of the story. Eventually I am completely out of it and wondering why I am even watching when I am constantly being annoyed instead of invested.

Finally, this isn't needless nitpicking, this is recognizing stupid when you see it. That is a valuable life skill anyone would do well to cultivate.

[FurnaceFace]

The whole episode worked for me. The character scenes were are really well done.

Jon and Varys on the beach had the right foreshadowing. The coin flip line was very good and gave pretty big hints Dany might go crazy cakes.

Dany and Tyrion - he was nervous in front of her. He also missed the point and she corrected him on who she feels betrayed her. She connected the dots for him which mad him more uncomfortable. Further foreshadowing in that one.

Dany and Greyworm - they shared their last moment of mourning. Greyworm has gone from unfeeling war machine to someone with a soul. It's been a good evolution. Her calling him by his real name shows some real care there and the bond they share.

Dany and Jon - the final incestuous kiss that reveals his true feelings. Lots there without words spoken.

Jamie and Erron - great comic relief to break some tension.

Tyrion while the city burns - so much sadness in his eyes and you can see the thought bubble above his head saying "WHY?!?!"

Arya and The Hound - to me the map room scene was "tender". Here is this gruff man who swears a ton, been through hell and back, killed just for the hell of it, and he's holding her back. He's been her protector and surrogate father figure since they watched her father die. This was him, in that role, being completely honest with her. In the exchange she sees that he isn't just giving her a line, it's straight from the heart and it gets her. Her using his real name shows her1 appreciation.

Cersei - her breakdown was excellent. She goes through the stages of grief as she watches the dragon wreck the place. "All it takes is one shot" "all the scorps are toast" (one stab wound) "We have the iron fleet" "to it again" (another stab wound) her men giving up, another, the city in bonfire, another. Realization this is the end...a tear, she's broken. So much said without words.

Cersei and Jamie - discussed by others but totally fitting.

The characters all watching 9/11 meets Pompeii and their unspoken reactions. All very well done.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

He couldn't have told her that during their 50 hour horse back ride to Kings Landing? Kind of ridiculous he gets through to her in a 15 second speech...

Because he wasnt against her killing Cersei at any point. If she could have safely killed Cersei he wouldn't have talked her it, it wasnt until he realised that they would have died trying that he decided to save her

[troutman]

Tywin died on Father's Day. Cersei on Mother's Day.

[PsYcNeT]

Like ya'll have never razed an enemy city of out spite in Civ when they were ones who declared war on you in the first place.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Ok so all of that is true but how exactly do we get to senselessly murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians tie into her desperation?

As someone pointed out, it would make sense if she went after the Red Keep and Cersei and in the process killed some civilians who were basically Cersei’s human shields.

But why in God’s name would Dany murder hundreds of thousands of people and destroy everything but Cersei and the Red Keep (until the end)? It literally has no purpose and achieves nothing.

Trying to claim anyone who doesn’t “get it” must be not paying attention is a cop out. You’re connecting dots that don’t exist. I’d argue the people paying attention are the ones pointing out how ridiculous it seemed.

What’s worse is that I think this is similar to GRRMs ending. It’s just that the show did an awful job of getting us to this point and now nothing makes sense.

No, I'm not.

she tells her small council that “mercy” is the strength that sets her forces apart from Cersei’s, she specifies it’s mercy for “future generations” who won’t have to suffer future tyrants—the poor, present-day smallfolk who are going to get killed in the crossfire of the upcoming battle will not be nearly so lucky.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thro...dev-1834712025

She believes that their sacrifice is worth it if future people are prevented from suffering. She has also, in a previous conversation hinted that if the people shouldn't have supported Cersei. She already sees them as guilty. So when the bells ring, her first thought isn't to save the innocents, it's that there are no innocents. At that moment she sees betrayal by Tyrion, and the only solution is to burn it all down.

I'm not suggesting this was executed perfectly, but I stand by "if you didn't see Danarys turning like this, you haven't been paying attention." Yes, some of it was only in the past few episodes. But a lot was kinda there through the seasons looking back on it.

If she hadn't went after the whole town, and had specifically only targeted Cersei we wouldn't really have a conclusion, it would just be more of the same ambivalent Danarys. I'm excited to see what that conclusion is next week. I'm less excited to read about your wingeing about it after.

[Harry Lime]

AC's post #5210

Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

If people are judging this episode on what they feel the motivations of the characters should be based on the writing of D&D the last two seasons, they should consider that these are the motivations of the GRRM mapped characters. They will seem slightly off, but more in tune with series long character and story arcs.

Taken in that context, this episode was a bit of the 'righting of the ship'.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by DropIt

Because he wasnt against her killing Cersei at any point. If she could have safely killed Cersei he wouldn't have talked her it, it wasnt until he realised that they would have died trying that he decided to save her

Well then he should have sliced Cersei in half when she walked by him down the stairs and said "this is for Arya you beyotch!"

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Ok so all of that is true but how exactly do we get to senselessly murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians tie into her desperation?

As someone pointed out, it would make sense if she went after the Red Keep and Cersei and in the process killed some civilians who were basically Cersei’s human shields.

But why in God’s name would Dany murder hundreds of thousands of people and destroy everything but Cersei and the Red Keep (until the end)? It literally has no purpose and achieves nothing.

Because it ties directly back to the actions of the Mad King (her father), who she was trying so hard not to be. In the end she couldn't escape going down that path. It also thematically builds upon the ideas of the thirst for power, revenge, and the darkness that can come from those things
These things are not logical. She stopped playing a game of chess in the end. She allowed her fear and anger to consume her. That's the point.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No, I'm not.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thro...dev-1834712025

She believes that their sacrifice is worth it if future people are prevented from suffering. She has also, in a previous conversation hinted that if the people shouldn't have supported Cersei. She already sees them as guilty. So when the bells ring, her first thought isn't to save the innocents, it's that there are no innocents. At that moment she sees betrayal by Tyrion, and the only solution is to burn it all down.

I'm not suggesting this was executed perfectly, but I stand by "if you didn't see Danarys turning like this, you haven't been paying attention." Yes, some of it was only in the past few episodes. But a lot was kinda there through the seasons looking back on it.

If she hadn't went after the whole town, and had specifically only targeted Cersei we wouldn't really have a conclusion, it would just be more of the same ambivalent Danarys. I'm excited to see what that conclusion is next week. I'm less excited to read about your wingeing about it after.

I think you nailed problem, it is that they made Dany not ambiguous.

She is clearly a tyrant.

This makes it easier for Jon and company to oppose her. If instead she had to slaughter innocents to win as oppose to choosing to slaughter innocents because she could.

It would make the choice that Tyrion and Jon now have to make difficult as opposed to easy.

I think most people saw Dany burning Civilians coming and were concerned it would be ham fisted rather than nuanced. Her character did not support mass slaughter without gain.

[blankall]

What the show was really missing was evidence of Dany's genuine insanity. The Targaryan insanity isn't just about making the wrong decision. It's an actual break from reality. Dany's father was motivated by the fact he would transform into a dragon during the burning of his city...not just to control by fear. He was planning to burn himself as well.

If over the show, we'd seen a few WTF moments from Dany, it might have helped. That being said, maybe the writers wanted this to be a complete surprise too. Maybe a bit a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If the writers lead too little or too much evidence of Dany going nuts, they get accused of poor writing.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

What the show was really missing was evidence of Dany's genuine insanity. The Targaryan insanity isn't just about making the wrong decision. It's an actual break from reality. Dany's father was motivated by the fact he would transform into a dragon during the burning of his city...not just to control by fear. He was planning to burn himself as well.

If over the show, we'd seen a few WTF moments from Dany, it might have helped. That being said, maybe the writers wanted this to be a complete surprise too. Maybe a bit a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If the writers lead too little or too much evidence of Dany going nuts, they get accused of poor writing.

Is that not the burning of the Tarleys, and the sudden need to go south with a weary army? These were clearly moments that gave Jon pause, and made him conflicted.

[AC]

Originally Posted by AC

Felt like the episode really drove home the idea that not everyone overcomes their weaknesses.

Several characters met their end because they refused to change. The Hound hammered it in with the line about chasing revenge his whole life and look where it got him, only to die to finally achieve it.

To elaborate on this, I saw another good synopsis on r/gameofthrones:

The theme throughout this entire episode was succumbing to your demons, this wasn't just about Dany's madness, the coin flip landed for every character on the board

-Cersei to her arrogance
-Jamie to his love for Cersei
-Sandor to his desire for revenge
-Qyburn to his monster ala Frankenstein
-Euron to his arrogance
-Tyrion to his love for his family
-Dany to her madness

Jon and Arya were also tested, Jon with his loyalty and Arya with her desire for revenge and their antithesis characters were Greyworm and The Hound. They represent the alternate path they could have chosen. Greyworm and Jon were faced with exactly the same choice at the same time just as Arya and the Hound were. Greyworm chose his loyalty to Dany whereas Jon defied his loyalty to do the right thing, Arya chose to live rather than succumb to revenge as The Hound did. All in all this episode was heavy with theme and I loved it for it.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that not the burning of the Tarleys, and the sudden need to go south with a weary army? These were clearly moments that gave Jon pause, and made him conflicted.

It's a pretty big leap from that to Kings Landing BBQ: Attendance Mandatory.

We went from hints that she had tyrannical tendencies over the years which was just ramped up to full on Mad Queen in basically two episodes. It wasn't well executed.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that not the burning of the Tarleys, and the sudden need to go south with a weary army? These were clearly moments that gave Jon pause, and made him conflicted.

Those were decisions done with purpose. The Tarley's wouldn't bend the knee and Dany wanted to ensure the Northern army marched south and not follow Sansa.

She didn't burn the rest of the Tarley Army.

At no point had she intentionally killed people that weren't in her way.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

He couldn't have told her that during their 50 hour horse back ride to Kings Landing? Kind of ridiculous he gets through to her in a 15 second speech...

My granddad didn't tell my dad he loved him until he was virtually on his deathbed.

[Roof-Daddy]

Jon, Tyrion and Ser Davos all now know they maybe made a mistake believing in Dany. She's a merciless power hungry mad woman.

My predictions for the final episode:

Spoiler!

My bet is Dany gets questioned/confronted and ends up trying to roast Jon but Drogon won't do it. Neither will anyone else except Grey Worm who Jon Kills. I also think Arya takes out Dany after seeing 1st hand what she did as well as Dany trying to kill Jon. If it's not Arya then I think it will be Tyrion who kills her, and is mortally wounded in the process maybe.

Jon doesn't want to be King. It makes him perfect to rule. Especially combined with the fact he's the only one with bloodlines to successfully rule the north and south by being both a Stark and a Targaryan. I think the Stark in him along with his humble upbringing as a bastard, also makes it so he's not power hungry and succeptable to going mad over power.

[Shazam]

Apparently GRRM hated the episode and wrote a reply:

Spoiler!

When HBO continued forward with the show Game of Thrones after the point at which my books no longer continued, I did my best to provide guidance toward the ending I envisioned, but I knew they would have to take some creative liberties. The episode that aired tonight deviated from my vision too much to stay silent. I want to let it be known that in my original vision, Daenerys Targaryen burned many, MANY more innocent children than pictured on HBO's show and their deaths were all shown in excruciating detail.

I look forward to finishing my books and sharing this vision with the world.

George R.R. Martin

[burn_this_city]

Hahah he was triggered by the painless deaths

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

What the show was really missing was evidence of Dany's genuine insanity. The Targaryan insanity isn't just about making the wrong decision. It's an actual break from reality. Dany's father was motivated by the fact he would transform into a dragon during the burning of his city...not just to control by fear. He was planning to burn himself as well.

If over the show, we'd seen a few WTF moments from Dany, it might have helped. That being said, maybe the writers wanted this to be a complete surprise too. Maybe a bit a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If the writers lead too little or too much evidence of Dany going nuts, they get accused of poor writing.

Because she isn’t insane. Impulsive, brutal, vindictive, believing in her birthright....yes, and she has been the entire series. This is the culmination of her entire life starting with the betrayal and destruction of her family by ‘these people’. She has a lifetime of vengeance to unleash and while it doesn’t logically make sense it absolutely does emotionally. Cities have been sacked and raped and pillaged forever right up to modern times. It’s an unfortunate human behaviour born be the need to release all the hatred that builds up over years of conflict.

Also don’t forget about the sons of the harpy where members of a supposedly grateful populace turned against her, or her deliberate stated choice of fear as a strategy.

She may in fact be mad but it’s too easy an answer to justify and then trash her behaviour.