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Old 09-12-2019, 01:11 PM   #41
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Doesn't AM need to clear waivers? Would he pass through?
Any deal now is essentially a 1-way. He'd have to pass through waivers twice - once out and once in - for the Flames to get him to Stockton, no?
There's no recall waivers if that's what you mean. Otherwise, yeah, I think one -way shouldn't be a concern for him. On the other hand, Treliving should see it the same way.

I suppose psychologically and optically, one-way versus two-way might be important only as an indicator that the team has confidence and/or doesn't think it needs to put pressure on you to perform.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:19 PM   #42
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Therefore the dollar value seems more likely to be the sticking point.

Especially after the report that the Flames are offering $800k and Mangiapane wants $1M+.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1169969297323679744
https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status...323679744?s=19
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:45 PM   #43
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Therefore the dollar value seems more likely to be the sticking point.

Especially after the report that the Flames are offering $800k and Mangiapane wants $1M+.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1169969297323679744
https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status...323679744?s=19
I saw that, and thought that they've probably wasted $50K each in negotiating time. Say $900K and sign the deal, dammit.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:52 PM   #44
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Holding out for that? At this point? With what leverage?

I really don't get what Mangiapane thinks he's doing. Treliving has no need to budge, and every reason to pinch pennies. There's just no way AM can win here. Sign or don't play, that's that.

I seriously question his agents competence.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:58 PM   #45
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I can't blame him for wanting to get paid, but he will lose out on a lot more then $200,000 if he does not have a good season. It all starts with being prepared at training camp.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:03 PM   #46
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I can't blame him for wanting to get paid, but he will lose out on a lot more then $200,000 if he does not have a good season. It all starts with being prepared at training camp.
Exactly. Every single goal this year could be worth as much as $200k per year on his next contract. A 20 goal season could easily be worth $1M more than a 15 goal season, which could be worth $1M than a 10 goal season. If I am him, I am far more concerned with making the team and getting off to a good start, than I am about $200k.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:37 PM   #47
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I'd wager that AM wants a 1 way deal and a 1 way only and that it is THE reason he isnt signed yet.

And man is there a lot of nastiness and snarl on Team Otto....good.

Yeah, that's the only thing that makes sense to me.

If it really is the $200K, him and his family need to be looking for a new agent - unless they think this is the only NHL contract AM is going to see in his career. Treliving also doesn't strike me as a greasy low-baller either. So IMO either Treliving has made what he (with a Treliving-sized amount of consideration) believes to be good value for the player - or an offer that would fit the player into the tight roster spot.

If you're playing in the NHL on a 2-way, doesn't it only suck because you're typically the 1st to be demoted if push comes to shove? I get pushing for that this off-season, but when camp approaches he needs to make sure he's earning that $1M 1-way the GM obviously doesn't agree you earned yet.

The minute his name wasn't on the camp roster, his weak negotiating position moves closer and closer to 2-way league minimum.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:43 PM   #48
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If you're playing in the NHL on a 2-way, doesn't it only suck because you're typically the 1st to be demoted if push comes to shove? I get pushing for that this off-season, but when camp approaches he needs to make sure he's earning that $1M 1-way the GM obviously doesn't agree you earned yet.

The minute his name wasn't on the camp roster, his weak negotiating position moves closer and closer to 2-way league minimum.
But again, because he isn't waiver exempt there's basically no chance the Flames try and send him down because he would be claimed. So I really don't see how that could be the sticking point as the possibility of Mangiapane being sent to the minors is essentially 0 as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:57 PM   #49
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But again, because he isn't waiver exempt there's basically no chance the Flames try and send him down because he would be claimed. So I really don't see how that could be the sticking point as the possibility of Mangiapane being sent to the minors is essentially 0 as far as I'm concerned.
That is assuredly true. But it makes both sides look a bit silly. They'd be arguing like this:

BT: You won't be sent down because you'd not make it through waivers so don't worry that it's a two-way.

AM: If I won't be sent down then why make it a two-way?

BT: Are you worried your play will make you (a) subject to being sent down and (b) bad enough you'd make it through waivers? If no, don't worry about it being a two way.

If I'm Tre I just make it one way. It's still buriable if you send him down. And if you end up sending him down he's probably played himself through waivers. Or if it's about keeping someone else up, that is just the risk you take.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:03 PM   #50
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That is assuredly true. But it makes both sides look a bit silly. They'd be arguing like this:

BT: You won't be sent down because you'd not make it through waivers so don't worry that it's a two-way.

AM: If I won't be sent down then why make it a two-way?

BT: Are you worried your play will make you (a) subject to being sent down and (b) bad enough you'd make it through waivers? If no, don't worry about it being a two way.

If I'm Tre I just make it one way. It's still buriable if you send him down. And if you end up sending him down he's probably played himself through waivers. Or if it's about keeping someone else up, that is just the risk you take.
I think at this point it's about Treliving retaining as much control over as many things as possible that the team can. It's an incredibly small thing, but this negotiation affects all of his future negotiations—maybe there is no plausible scenario in which Mangiapane is dispatched to Stockton, but there will almost assuredly be more young players that Treliving will need to re-sign in the future for whom this difference is more substantial.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:03 PM   #51
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I doubt very much that the Flames are demanding a two-way contract - having to pay him full salary in the minors doesn't hurt them.

What the Flames need is to have his NHL salary be as low as possible. So I would guess that the issue is the $200k of NHL salary, not whether or not it is a two-way.

The Flames would rather have it be $800K one-way, than $1M, two-way.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:04 PM   #52
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That is assuredly true. But it makes both sides look a bit silly. They'd be arguing like this:

BT: You won't be sent down because you'd not make it through waivers so don't worry that it's a two-way.

AM: If I won't be sent down then why make it a two-way?

BT: Are you worried your play will make you (a) subject to being sent down and (b) bad enough you'd make it through waivers? If no, don't worry about it being a two way.

If I'm Tre I just make it one way. It's still buriable if you send him down. And if you end up sending him down he's probably played himself through waivers. Or if it's about keeping someone else up, that is just the risk you take.
Except his bosses wont love paying an AHLer that much. And with BT's buyout history, I don't think they're too pleased with paying extra real dollars for his mistakes.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:09 PM   #53
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But again, because he isn't waiver exempt there's basically no chance the Flames try and send him down because he would be claimed. So I really don't see how that could be the sticking point as the possibility of Mangiapane being sent to the minors is essentially 0 as far as I'm concerned.
I JUST got what you guys were saying there
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:09 PM   #54
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Except his bosses wont love paying an AHLer that much. And with BT's buyout history, I don't think they're too pleased with paying extra real dollars for his mistakes.
If he's not likely being sent down it's not an issue. And his buyout history is negated by his stellar contract negotiations with Gio/Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Hanifin/Hamonic/Brodie.

Plus he just turned a $3.5M salary into a $1.8M salary with the Stone buyout/signing. I think they'd view that as a win, or at least a major mitigation of the original contract.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:10 PM   #55
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Except his bosses wont love paying an AHLer that much. And with BT's buyout history, I don't think they're too pleased with paying extra real dollars for his mistakes.
I can't see it being a huge deal.

What percentage of the season could Mangiapane realistically spend in the minors? Even with no injuries on the roster, he is likely here most, if not all of the year. Any significant injuries and there is zero chance that he is in the A.

Let's say he spent 20 games in Stockton. And let's say the contract is $1M/$200K, two-way deal.

That means that - by getting the two-way - they save a whopping $200k. IF he spends that time in the minors. On an $80+M budget. I doubt they care at all.

Fitting him and Tkachuk under the cap - as thus needing to save the $200k on his NHL salary - is far more important.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:11 PM   #56
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I think at this point it's about Treliving retaining as much control over as many things as possible that the team can. It's an incredibly small thing, but this negotiation affects all of his future negotiations—maybe there is no plausible scenario in which Mangiapane is dispatched to Stockton, but there will almost assuredly be more young players that Treliving will need to re-sign in the future for whom this difference is more substantial.
I suppose he may just have a strict policy of two-ways for a certain category of players.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:31 PM   #57
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That is assuredly true. But it makes both sides look a bit silly. They'd be arguing like this:

BT: You won't be sent down because you'd not make it through waivers so don't worry that it's a two-way.

AM: If I won't be sent down then why make it a two-way?

BT: Are you worried your play will make you (a) subject to being sent down and (b) bad enough you'd make it through waivers? If no, don't worry about it being a two way.

If I'm Tre I just make it one way. It's still buriable if you send him down. And if you end up sending him down he's probably played himself through waivers. Or if it's about keeping someone else up, that is just the risk you take.
But my assumption is that because the 2-way doesn't make a difference if he can't be waived without being claimed, then the Flames are offering a 1 way but at a lower salary than desired.

Again, the report out there is that the Flames offered $800k, while Mangiapane wants more. No mention of a 2-way being the hurdle.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:34 PM   #58
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If he's not likely being sent down it's not an issue. And his buyout history is negated by his stellar contract negotiations with Gio/Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Hanifin/Hamonic/Brodie.

Plus he just turned a $3.5M salary into a $1.8M salary with the Stone buyout/signing. I think they'd view that as a win, or at least a major mitigation of the original contract.
It is amazing to look at the list of contracts the Flames have that are bloody steals.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:00 AM   #59
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Just watched a Treliving interview in which he identified Dube and Gawdin as two guys he sees as pushing to take on bigger roles this year.

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Old 09-13-2019, 09:07 AM   #60
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I can't take Johnny seriously with that pubic hair beard.
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