The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[CaptainCrunch]

I've wanted to murder my players for their stupidity at times.

A player gets a concussion.

What does she do? Goes to her Chiro for an adjustment and advice.

Hurts her quad muscle, goes to her chiro for a massage

I mean seriously last year at one point, I started refusing to play players if they didn't come with a note from an actual doctor clearing them.

But my massage therapist says that my concussion should be ok.

Seriously.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

This is physiotherapy.

Myofascial release. Perhaps a physiotherapist could have performed this as well, I'm not sure.

[Nyah]

I was in a bit of a debate with someone on Facebook who thinks that the parents have been punished enough and that they should be left alone. It's unbelievable that people actually think these parents should be absolved because they were using "Holistic Medicine", and therefore not withholding treatment. And because they've 'suffered enough'. Complete lunatics.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nyah

I was in a bit of a debate with someone on Facebook who thinks that the parents have been punished enough and that they should be left alone. It's unbelievable that people actually think these parents should be absolved because they were using "Holistic Medicine", and therefore not withholding treatment. And because they've 'suffered enough'. Complete lunatics.

How are they treating their other kids? Do they take them to the doctor now? Have the gotten all their vaccinations up to date? If not, they clearly haven't been punished enough. Beat them over the head with a wiffle bat until they come to their senses.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Except the core tenets of chiropractic state that you have "viruses" in your spinal column that cause most diseases and mental maladies.

A sports therapist would do the same and more without all the pseudo-science and spiritual quackery.

WTF, I've never heard of that before. The chiro that I go to has always been super-Science nerd and I've never ever heard that from any Chiro I've ever seen.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Anyway, your assertion regarding viruses in your spinal column as a core tenet certainly sounded like spiritual quackery to me as well so I checked. You're right. That used to be a belief. But is widely rejected by most Chiropractors now.

Except a massive majority of chiropractors practice Palmer School, which is a ludicrous amount of quackery legitimized from years of successful marketing.

Don't even get me started on those who practice on infants and pets.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Envitro

WTF, I've never heard of that before. The chiro that I go to has always been super-Science nerd and I've never ever heard that from any Chiro I've ever seen.

So why is he a chiropractor? Seriously. Why isn't he a massage therapist (equally bogus in regards to claims of long-term efficacy) or a physiotherapist.

Talk to any chiropractor long enough, and you will find a quack hiding beneath the surface.

Studies have shown that even having another person put their hands on you, and talk to you can have a similar placebo effect.

Oh, and in the "it happened to me" file, a chiropractor broke one of my brother's back, and the problem had to be fixed with major surgery. The chiropractor had no clue why my brother was beset with crippling headaches, and neurological pain in his lower legs, he just recommended another 6 months of treatments.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Envitro

WTF, I've never heard of that before. The chiro that I go to has always been super-Science nerd and I've never ever heard that from any Chiro I've ever seen.

I saw a nutbar like this once. My wife worked for one here in Calgary for awhile. I called him Dr Quack. All sorts of BS treatments done in that clinic.

[PsYcNeT]

I'd like anyone who uses a chiro here to ask if your (probably fictional) 2 year old toddler is old enough to have an adjustment.

Their answer may shock you.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Except a massive majority of chiropractors practice Palmer School, which is a ludicrous amount of quackery legitimized from years of successful marketing.

Don't even get me started on those who practice on infants and pets.

Okay.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I'd like anyone who uses a chiro here to ask if your (probably fictional) 2 year old toddler is old enough to have an adjustment.

Their answer may shock you.

Okay, easy with the foreboding end sentence there, Dateline.

[peter12]

But we could use a Dateline episode on the crazy people that take their infants for c-spine adjustments by a pseudo-medical practitioner whose office is normally in the basement of a mall.

[undercoverbrother]

I have physically abused by body for years, and continue it still.

Chiropractic, as long as the DC isn't a nutbag, has it's place IMO. But, it isn't a cure all as a large majority of Chiro will have you believe.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...-chiropractic/

This sums it up well for me:

Chiropractic is not a science, but that doesn’t mean that nothing they do is based on science. There is evidence that spinal manipulation therapy is effective for some kinds of low back pain. It is no more effective than other treatments for low back pain, but is a viable option for patients who prefer it. It is not exclusive to chiropractors, but is also used by physical therapists, physiatrists and doctors of osteopathy. In essence, the one “claim to fame” that chiropractors have is not really anything uniquely chiropractic but is a manual therapy shared with other disciplines.

They also reference this site:

http://www.chirobase.org/

I have been to crazy physio's, massage therapist, Chiro's, GP's, dentists.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Okay, easy with the foreboding end sentence there, Dateline.

Hey man, the internet is all about clickbait and zazzing it up.

Gotta add that Razzle Dazzle!

[photon]

I stopped going to a local parents group for kids with disabilities when they brought in a chiropractor to talk about Autism. Obviously wasn't the actually-a-physiotherapist kind but was a subluxations-are-real-cure-autism-with-child-neck-manipulation-lets-get-a-full-body-xray kind.

I agonized over whether to go or not, ultimately I stayed home as that would have probably been the closest I'd have ever come to being arrested.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by peter12

On a slightly different note, this self-medicating BS aggravates me to no end. I have a lot of time for honest, decent skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry. A lot of the time the drugs that we told work quite effectively don't work very well at all or they come with a lot of stipulations that users are simply unwilling to abide by. The Accutane/pregnancy imbroglio is one such example.

However, what we have now is infinitely better than all of the essential oils, natural supplements, and pseudo-spiritual crap sold by the tawdry, myriad caravan of peddlers that truly make money off of the ignorance and misery of ordinary people.

I was just diagnosed with a disorder that I have had my entire life, and, until recently, was completely unaware of. It blew me away how many family members came out of the woodwork recommending this or that course of treatment that was downright insane. It blew me away even further how angry they got when I insisted I would be following the standard biomedical course of therapy/treatment.

We were MOBBED when my daughter was diagnosed. Straight up mobbed by everyone selling essential oils, and magic juices and cleanses and this special diet and that special diet. It was exhausting. And it's hurtful and annoying. Suddenly all you are, rather than their friend or family member who could use some actual support during a rough time, is a dollar sign to aid them in building their "business." Bleh, business. WTFE. Families are already experiencing major stressors and this crap just adds to that.

When you sell essential oils and claim to me, that you can stop a spine from fusing? Every version of the F word to you, you asshat. If you're going to claim that, you're practicing medicine without a license and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. People rarely try to sell us on their crap now as our reactions have given them good reason to never ever mention the BS to us ever again. The odd person sometimes says something to our daughter, not knowing her or us well enough to know how we feel about all the crap, regarding essential oils and now she just turns the tables on them and says she was "essential oil injured" and she "hopes they respect her choice to refrain from a therapy that has done her harm." Shuts them down fairly quickly, lol.

We tried some massage therapy per one of her doctors because they hoped it would alleviate some of the muscle issues (tightness, spasms etc) and chose someone based on a stellar reputation. We knew they were involved in reiki, etc and made sure the massage therapist knew we did not want any of that, we were simply after the massage treatments.

Turns out, the massage therapist is a freaking crackpot. They caught part of a conversation between my daughter and I, discussing a silly TV show we'd watched the night prior. Now, normally, it's not a TV show we watch. That episode was the first and the last and we only watched because there'd been so much yammer leading up to this particular episode that we wanted to see if the situation was as crazy as people were saying. The massage therapist interrupted us and started going on and on about how it was bad juju to have a TV and to watch crappy shows like that and if we only read more books, and did all these alternative "therapies", then she wouldn't have this autoimmune disease. Uh, what now? The massage therapist was asked to leave immediately and we refuse to give a referral. We're a bit gunshy now, on further massage therapy even though it's recommended by the specialists and our GP.

You know, we/she only ever refused 2 medication protocols. The doctors had initially misdiagnosed CRPS and had put her on Gabapentin. It was a nasty medication for her. They realized the misdiagnosis eventually and we weaned her off the medication. That was in the children's system. When she entered the adult system, a new doctor wanted to put her on Gabapentin right away and she refused and we backed her up on that. There was a second medication that they wanted to try in lieu, but having had a lengthy discussion with one great doctor while still in the Children's system about that medication and its side effects, she also refused that one. Her doctor wasn't thrilled but acquiesed. Later, the doctor admitted to my daughter/us, that having treated our daughter longer, they now realized the medication would have been ineffective.

We have found, within the medical community, that there are doctors that tend to treat by throwing medications at something and hoping it 'sticks.' Like any profession, there are turdbuckets like that. Even so, we'll stick with actual doctors and therapies/treatments/protocols before we'll ever EVER resort to essential oils and homeopathy/natural paths (yes, I know it's naturopath, I'm mocking everyone whose ever recommended one to us and couldn't even spell it) and the like.

We have watched this case in southern Alberta with some interest. We are very curious as to the outcome and believe there should be some sort of legal repercussion.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by photon

I stopped going to a local parents group for kids with disabilities when they brought in a chiropractor to talk about Autism. Obviously wasn't the actually-a-physiotherapist kind but was a subluxations-are-real-cure-autism-with-child-neck-manipulation-lets-get-a-full-body-xray kind.

I agonized over whether to go or not, ultimately I stayed home as that would have probably been the closest I'd have ever come to being arrested.

That is ####ing infuriating.

[peter12]

A lot of this stuff goes unchecked at the parenting level. The Internet just makes it worse. Look at the revival of the doula/midwife "profession." Absolutely insane what these morons get away with telling pregnant women.

[burn_this_city]

I immediately think less of people who believe in this stuff. I can't help it, they have outed themselves as morons and there's no coming back from there.

[morgin]

Originally Posted by peter12

A lot of this stuff goes unchecked at the parenting level. The Internet just makes it worse. Look at the revival of the doula/midwife "profession." Absolutely insane what these morons get away with telling pregnant women.

Midwives are a tricky one, only because there are some (but obviously not all) who are essentially labour and delivery nurses in everything but name, and give scientifically sound care during pregnancy with the benefit of reliving some burden on our hospitals. This is problematic in a number of respects though, because the belief system of midwifery allows for things like home births and all that which is incompatible with having the best care available if needed (which requires being close by the specialists in the hospital). For a lot of people with uncomplicated pregnancies, experienced midwives who have been brought up in western medicine are a great compliment to our health care system and a tool to ease the volume burden on our obstetricians. However, I personally only feel they should be supported as a complimentary service that still requires hospital deliveries for uncomplicated pregnancies, where the specialists are available if necessary.

Doula's are just supposed to be an emotional support person for the mom. They are not a replacement for clinical care. Lots of otherwise normal people have used doulas for various reasons (husband out of town and can't come back for a birth, so nice to have a support person who knows a bit about birth with you to provide emotional support during childbirth). Any doula who tries to practice outside that narrow field or promote a birth agenda that is contrary to best clinical practices or any of the other crap that can come along with it is problematic as well though.

When it comes to health care, anything that can ease the costs and expenses on our system and is not incompatible with best clinical practices and doesnt put anyone, especially a newborn, at higher risk, can and should be contemplated where possible. In a perfect world, everyone would have a top rated ob/gyn and a team of experienced L&D nurses available, but we also have to balance costs, which is where these other providers can come into play. To me, that's a bit different than outright quackery.