The Flames need to recall Matthew Phillips

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

29 lbs, actually.

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depends what website you look at.

I agree he is likely heavier than the 140 lbs listed here though

https://www.nhl.com/player/matthew-phillips-8479547

Either way...he is giving up 40 lbs minimum on average to every other guy on the ice.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Maybe in Atom. Or Pee Wee

No...that was his weight in junior when he was drafted...i clearly remember that being talked about at the time.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

How do you possibly quantify that statement?





There is a reason he isn't with the big club...what is it?



I mean I hope the guy can do what he's been doing in the A at the next level...hell...i hope he does even more. Certainly don't expect it though.

I don't get the concern about small players getting hurt more frequently. I think the primary concern is always that they struggle to win puck battles and are easily separated from the puck. I am a smaller guy, but I have never been any less durable than anyone else.

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[GranteedEV]

Phillips literally trains with Ryan Van Asten in the offseason. As does Dube.

Concerns about strength are overblown.

Much like Gaudreau, the bigger issue for Phillips will simply be lacking the reach to play keepaway. But he's a strong off-puck player so he doesn't need to play a nonstop russian possession game.

Originally Posted by transplant99

There is a reason he isn't with the big club...what is it?

This may blow your mind, but professionals, whether GMs or Coaches, are still prone to irrational bias. Size is exactly that. A bias.

Now, if Phillips played in the league and proved ineffective (and even that would require a lot of patience - look how long it took Mangiapane before he found his game at this level) then you could say that there's a reason he isn't with the big club.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Flame On

What is there to decide. No one is threatened by Ritchie, no one is threatened by Sean, and as a result they can just key in on Johnny. If he tries to push through it he gets plastered to the boards, if he doesn't cretins will accuse him of not being tough and pulling up. At least with a skilled and fellow nippy player they may actually back off the D as they rush.

Hey I'm on the Phillips bandwagon and want to see him play on Gaudreau and Monahan's wing, but I don't think Ritchie has been bad there. I think he's the best of those 3 on that line right now, he's doing his job.

Against Montreal, Mony and Johnny were making proper dumps and Ritchie was getting to the puck and establishing the forecheck and zone time. They produced some offense in those games.

Against Edmonton, the dumps weren't done properly, plus you also were up against Mike Smith who is pretty good and combating the dump and chase.

Against, Toronto, the dumps were just terrible. Johnny especially was dumping the puck into places Ritchie couldn't get to.

Dump and chase is not really that easy to do. It takes a lot of communication between the players and recognition and chemistry. It's a skill that Johnny should learn because it is a great option for him to use if the opposition isn't given him a clean entry. Johnny does seem frustrated with it but he really should give it more effort and practice it more.

It's clear to me and this is based on what Ritchie said in a pre-game before the first Oilers game, that getting that line to dump and chase is designed to open up more clean entries for Gaudreau. The opposition knows that Gaudreau wants to skate the puck in and set up and they are defending him for that. Darryl wants him to develop the dump and chase so that he has this option to use. If the opposition is going to take away Gaudreau's entry, then they go to the dump and chase and establish possession that way. The hope is that they perfect the dump and chase to the point where the opposition has to defend that more and therefore give Gaudreau more room on the entries.

The problem is that Gaudreau and Monahan have been making really bad dumps in the past 3 games which has really killed the dump and chase option. They need to be better.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

depends what website you look at.



I agree he is likely heavier than the 140 lbs listed here though



https://www.nhl.com/player/matthew-phillips-8479547



Either way...he is giving up 40 lbs minimum on average to every other guy on the ice.

I would think his listed measurements as they are posted by the team he is actually playing for would be the most current, and accurate.

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[868904]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Phillips literally trains with Ryan Van Asten in the offseason. As does Dube.

Concerns about strength are overblown.

Much like Gaudreau, the bigger issue for Phillips will simply be lacking the reach to play keepaway. But he's a strong off-puck player so he doesn't need to play a nonstop russian possession game.



This may blow your mind, but professionals, whether GMs or Coaches, are still prone to irrational bias. Size is exactly that. A bias.

I don't think Management is being irrational at all. He's only played 115 AHL games, that's barely even two seasons of it. He also suffered a season ending injury last year and they are probably being a bit more cautious with him.

I think they believe in him, they just want him to physically mature as much as possible before they bring him up. They want him to marinate as long as possible.

Mangiapane played 120 AHL games before he became full time NHL player.

That's also another factor is that Dube and Mangiapane only recently made that jump. It's a bit of a timing thing too as the Flames have been graduating players up pretty regularly now. There's only so much room.

If they didn't think he had it in him, they wouldn't have wasted the draft pick. This Flames management team really likes small skilled players, just look at their drafting. The key is to balance your team with this skill and also some size to play with it. I actually think Ritchie's emergence allows the Flames to play Phillips.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by 868904

I actually think Ritchie's emergence allows the Flames to play Phillips.

What emergence? Ritchie is the worst CF% and worst xGF% player on the team. He's the definition of size bias reigning over actual effectiveness.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by New Era

And Phillips would get killed trying to play that against NHL level players. Some of you really need to understand just how massive a leap it is from the AHL to the NHL. The players in the NHL are just so much faster, so much smarter, so much BIGGER, and so much tougher. The things Phillips thinks he can do at the AHL level, like playing in traffic, would be so much harder for him in the NHL. The game is quicker, the gaps are non-existent, and the space closes like vice. Phillips trying to play in traffic would see him get hurt so quickly.

Understand, that even if Phillips is the best player on his team, or even the best player in his league (which he is not) he is stepping into a league where the best players from the best leagues around the globe have come together to play. He goes from being one of the top players to barely being on radar. The jump between leagues is not easy and for a player that is so physically limited, that jump is almost an impossibility. You can trot out the tired "he was told he couldn't play at this level, but he succeeded..." but the reality is that making the jump to the best league in the world is such a massive leap that most players never succeed, regardless of talent level. Without the perfect blend of skill, smarts, and size, it is unlikely a player is going to reach that penultimate plateau and achieve any level of success.

I think your view of size and the importance of it is overblown. This isn't the 90s anymore and the game has changed. Patrick Kane is still elite, Brad Marchand isn't big, heck look how successful Alex Debrincat is doing and he's just as small as Phillips. I think the only concern with Phillips would be if his skill and speed can translate to the NHL, if he was going to get killed because of his size, it already would have happened in the AHL. I also don't think you understand that smaller players grow up adapting to playing against bigger guys so it's not like it's new to them. Johnny is the biggest wuss in the league and still hasn't been killed. His injuries have been from getting slashed if anything.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That’s the storyline for every player who is successful in the AHL and not the NHL, just insert a different quality other than size. Excel at every level until they got to the bigs. I’m certainly not saying don’t give him a shot, but this is literally the tag line of every drafted player in every sport. Excelled at every level.

I agree, not right to write him off until he has had a shot in the NHL. But he’s most certainly not the right answer to the Gaudreau-Monahan line.

Right and if you're successful in the AHL (all star game, and top ten in scoring this year) you should be given a shot and not discounted because of size.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Phillips literally trains with Ryan Van Asten in the offseason. As does Dube.

Concerns about strength are overblown.

Much like Gaudreau, the bigger issue for Phillips will simply be lacking the reach to play keepaway. But he's a strong off-puck player so he doesn't need to play a nonstop russian possession game.



This may blow your mind, but professionals, whether GMs or Coaches, are still prone to irrational bias. Size is exactly that. A bias.

Now, if Phillips played in the league and proved ineffective (and even that would require a lot of patience - look how long it took Mangiapane before he found his game at this level) then you could say that there's a reason he isn't with the big club.

So you are suggesting that the Flames are biased, (irrationally at that) against small players?

The same team that runs out Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Dube, and Ryan on a regular basis....that is the bias showing in this team?

OK then.

Tell me more how Bennett should be the #1 C on this club too please.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What emergence? Ritchie is the worst CF% and worst xGF% player on the team. He's the definition of size bias reigning over actual effectiveness.

Bad word I used. Not emergence like a top 6 player, I mean emergence as a guy who can play as one of the 12 forwards.

I think he's more useful than Leivo and Simon and think he should play ahead of them.

Ideally, I think he should be on that 4th line with Ryan and Bennett. And try Phillips with Gaudreau and Monahan.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So you are suggesting that the Flames are biased, (irrationally at that) against small players?

The same team that runs out Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Dube, and Ryan on a regular basis....that is the bias showing in this team?

The same team that can find more games for names like Buddy Robinson, Byron Froese, Josh Leivo and Brett Ritchie, than they can find for Phillips.

The same team that put Paul Byron on waivers so they could keep a roster spot for the likes of Joe Colborne and Brandon Bollig.

Yeah, let's pretend the heights of those players had no bearing on those decisions.

When the Flames put smaller players into the lineup, they do so reluctantly. Just because they ultimately find themselves forced to do these things does not erase the blatant preferential treatment of bigger players.

I don't doubt Phillips can fight his way onto this team's roster, but he's not going to be given the same opportunity that an inferior, bigger player like Ruzicka or Gawdin or Pospisil will inevitably get.

OK then.

Tell me more how Bennett should be the #1 C on this club too please.

Things I haven't said in like five years.

Originally Posted by 868904

Bad word I used. Not emergence like a top 6 player, I mean emergence as a guy who can play as one of the 12 forwards.

I think he's more useful than Leivo and Simon and think he should play ahead of them.

Ideally, I think he should be on that 4th line with Ryan and Bennett. And try Phillips with Gaudreau and Monahan.

Brett Ritchie has shown nothing that isn't reflective of a tweener. Leivo, for all his warts, still drives shot differentials. Ritchie is all style and no substance.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by 868904

Hey I'm on the Phillips bandwagon and want to see him play on Gaudreau and Monahan's wing, but I don't think Ritchie has been bad there. I think he's the best of those 3 on that line right now, he's doing his job.

Against Montreal, Mony and Johnny were making proper dumps and Ritchie was getting to the puck and establishing the forecheck and zone time. They produced some offense in those games.

Against Edmonton, the dumps weren't done properly, plus you also were up against Mike Smith who is pretty good and combating the dump and chase.

Against, Toronto, the dumps were just terrible. Johnny especially was dumping the puck into places Ritchie couldn't get to.

Dump and chase is not really that easy to do. It takes a lot of communication between the players and recognition and chemistry. It's a skill that Johnny should learn because it is a great option for him to use if the opposition isn't given him a clean entry. Johnny does seem frustrated with it but he really should give it more effort and practice it more.

It's clear to me and this is based on what Ritchie said in a pre-game before the first Oilers game, that getting that line to dump and chase is designed to open up more clean entries for Gaudreau. The opposition knows that Gaudreau wants to skate the puck in and set up and they are defending him for that. Darryl wants him to develop the dump and chase so that he has this option to use. If the opposition is going to take away Gaudreau's entry, then they go to the dump and chase and establish possession that way. The hope is that they perfect the dump and chase to the point where the opposition has to defend that more and therefore give Gaudreau more room on the entries.

The problem is that Gaudreau and Monahan have been making really bad dumps in the past 3 games which has really killed the dump and chase option. They need to be better.

Well also, Smith was easily able to disrupt the whole dump and chase plan. Which then leaves players to fall back to other methods. That line falls down with other methods. Only one has size, only one has speed and creativity, and only one has a two-way mentality.
Maybe Philips isn't the answer, and I too would love to see him getting a shot. I just think what's there now isn't playing to the strengths of any of the line. I felt like two fast and creative players; along with Sean, would drive the D back and back them off, instead of standing up against them and punishing them. I'm willing to admit that might be a flawed idea too though.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't see the argument against calling Phillips up. Yeah yeah he is only 85lbs soaking wet. Yeah yeah in the off-seasons he has worked as a stuntman for Peter Dinklage. Are you guys spouting off about things that we are oblivious to? Who cares?? The only argument is the constant repetition of "Too small!!". For pages and pages I see: "Too small!"


People who like Phillips are fully aware of how tiny he is. Why it is still a (exhaustive, overly repetitive and has now become an excruciatingly boring) counter-argument for him deserving to be called-up?


People who want Phillips called-up KNOW how small he is. We know how much smaller he is comparatively too, but congratulations on showing us all your (un)impressive math skills!



Phillips is doing well in the AHL. Very well. He is fast, tenacious, smart, slick, and - most of all - has worked his ass off to get to where he is today. He simply DESERVES to be called-up. You reward players like him that work THAT hard and do THAT well. That's how you build a culture down on your farm too. Work hard, the organization notices you, period.


There is no argument against calling him up. Maybe he falls flat on his face. Maybe he is awful in the NHL. Maybe he gets laid-out with a huge hit on his first shift. That's a lot of maybes.



Maybe he simply deserves a crack at it. No. That's where the maybes stop. He has simply EARNED his shot. Just a matter of time before the Flames give it to him.



New coach, who is probably still trying to famliarize himself with the current lineup, and probably still figuring out where he should slot whom where exactly. Won't be long before he settles in and takes a peek at what the Flames have organizationally. Sutter likes big players... but know what Sutter likes even more than that? Guys who work hard and help the team win.

[TheScorpion]

I do find it funny how people are saying Phillips would get killed by the size of the NHL... the AHL is way more physical and is still full of enforcers. And yet Phillips is one of the very best players in that league.

[agulati]

I think Phillips has definitely deserved a cup of coffee in the NHL to see what he can do. Hopefully he gets the chance soon.

We have seen small players on our team do well. Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Dube and Ryan are all on the small side but have found a role and excelled at it, despite their size. Yes, Phillips is smaller, but the league is moving in a direction that does suit his size getting more opportunities


What does worry me is the fact that he has had injuries over the last few years. Are those injuries hits related or just regular hockey related?

[powderjunkie]

Pelletier and Zavgorodny are small guys, too. If the org were totally against them they probably wouldn't draft them...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Phillips "thinks" he can do these things because he actually does them.

At a minor league level against a very limited number of teams. I mean, get ####ing serious, Phillips isn't even playing against the vast majority of the teams in the AHL. He's playing against a subset, and not even the best subset.

You speak condescendingly as if you know better than every one else here about such things. Do you think that Phillips himself is not keenly aware of the gap between the AHL and the NHL? Do you somehow believe that he imdoes not know exactly what it takes to get there, and how hard it will be to stick?

Condescendingly? About playing sports professionally and working through the minor league levels? There are people on this site that have been through the grinder in hockey and other sports. Try listening to their experience. Getting to the show is a quantum level jump. Matthew Phillips barely has the skill to make the jump and then has the limitation of his size. The deck is so stacked against him it isn't even funny.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

At a minor league level against a very limited number of teams. I mean, get ####ing serious, Phillips isn't even playing against the vast majority of the teams in the AHL. He's playing against a subset, and not even the best subset.

No one is arguing this point. We all agree strongly that playing in the NHL is monumentally more difficult than it is playing in the AHL. Stop screaming about it and pulling out your hair in a feigned attempt to garner attention. We can all hear you just fine, but many have stopped listening altogether.

And to the point, what you said was:

Originally Posted by New Era

The things Phillips thinks he can do at the AHL level, like playing in traffic, would be so much harder for him in the NHL.

If you don't like my response, then next time be more precise in your phrasing as opposed to hammering away on your keyboard while frothing at the mouth.

I am ignoring the rest because it deserves to be ignored.