Pentagon releases UFO videos

[Fuzz]

Well you did say they that we may be looking in the wrong places. First off, we aren't looking, second, there wouldn't really be "wrong places" if they were global in scale. We have a pretty good understanding of global stratigraphy going back 500 million years. Surly someone would have spotted something out of the ordinary by now. Something not naturally occurring. Some heavy concentrations of minerals that are out of place. I'm not saying it's totally impossible, but it's highly improbable.

And yes, a wise society would reign in population. But I don't think you get there without the pain we have gone through, either. Who knows, maybe the found a way to harvest the energy of the sun incredibly efficiently without going through a destructive phase, but you don't get microprocessors, energy sources, and the knowledge to do it all without breaking a few eggs.

Saying it's arrogance to think otherwise is just you saying words. It's logical, too. It may be fun to fantasize about these things, but lets leave it at that, fantasy. Unless you have some evidence, you may as well try to convince me to believe in God.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

There would almost certainly be evidence of plastics use in geological layers, and likely runaway unexplained climate change. Other impacts that may be found are fossils, evidence of machine working or excavation in the form of deep mines. But, geologically speaking, we would very likely have seen some extremely confusing sedimentary layers SOMEWHERE on earth by now that would give us an inkling that we were not the first big thinkers on the planet.

Interestingly, there are several mass extinction/ climate change events that have no definite known cause. The largest in earth's history, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permia...tinction_event
~250 million years ago, it is quite far removed from us geologically, and was even ~20 million years prior to Dinosaurs existing.

Maybe.

If that ancient civilization pre-dated the dinosaurs, where would the petrochemicals to manufacture plastics have come from?

[Monahammer]

We are cavemen with Iphones. There's plenty of evidence of that in society right now.

I would never say we know everything (we know almost nothing) but the amount that we understand about the physical laws of the universe do somewhat limit the potential energy sources that could be wielded to create an advanced civilization, and almost all of them leave some sort of trace geologically.

Regarding the potential for civilizations buried beneath the ocean- I wholeheartedly agree and am a personal believer in there having been proto civilizations in places like the red sea valley, the persian gulf valley, the bay of gujarat etc. that help explain shared deluge myths and cultural similarities between early examples of civilization. But thats ~25-15,000 years ago. Anything beyond that enters the realm of fantasy- in part because it essentially exists as something we could never really know, and in part because the unlikelihood that we wouldn't have found even a shred of evidence (I noticed you avoided my extinction event comment which IMO is actually the most interesting potential evidence...) that something like that did exist on earth ~250 million years ago. We're not just talking about being buried by the ocean on this scale, but perhaps completely subsumed into the crust of the earth. Pangea was still around.

And after all, who ever said that a civilization had to be land based at all? What if intelligent sea creatures existed at once? The ocean has always covered a larger part of our planet, and life started there most likely.

Could it have been? Maybe. Doubtful IMO based on everything we know. But Maybe. Anything is possible. I give much higher odds to life having developed on Venus or Mars than I do to prior civilization existing on earth.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well you did say they that we may be looking in the wrong places. First off, we aren't looking, second, there wouldn't really be "wrong places" if they were global in scale. We have a pretty good understanding of global stratigraphy going back 500 million years. Surly someone would have spotted something out of the ordinary by now. Something not naturally occurring. Some heavy concentrations of minerals that are out of place. I'm not saying it's totally impossible, but it's highly improbable.

Again, using our context to define global. Global doesn't mean huge settlements everywhere, like we do now. Global could very well mean having a small presence in locations around the globe, and small being a family dwelling or two. If you had the technology to transport yourself from Canada to Australia almost instantaneously, would you need to develop large settlements to live or survive? Unlikely. You would be able to have minimal to no impact on the locations you traveled to and still have access to all the amenities of the advanced culture you came from.

And yes, a wise society would reign in population.

Seeing as they likely had a small population to begin with, this likely may not have been a problem. As societies become more technologically advanced, populations decrease.

But I don't think you get there without the pain we have gone through, either. Who knows, maybe the found a way to harvest the energy of the sun incredibly efficiently without going through a destructive phase, but you don't get microprocessors, energy sources, and the knowledge to do it all without breaking a few eggs.

Who knows. The Sumerians had a thriving and advanced civilization and they didn't leave many signs of breaking eggs. Civilizations build monuments to honor their greatness but rarely record their failures. You are also assuming that technology was developed, rather than considering that the technology was gifted. You're also assuming that the civilization began here. It could be possible we are the result of a colonization effort, aligning with Monahammer's idea.

Saying it's arrogance to think otherwise is just you saying words. It's logical, too. It may be fun to fantasize about these things, but lets leave it at that, fantasy. Unless you have some evidence, you may as well try to convince me to believe in God.

And that is you just uttering nonsense. It's "logical" to approach issues from the single context you are familiar with? No, it isn't. It is actually logical to consider all possibilities, even the ones you are most uncomfortable with (including there being a God), and also considering other perspectives. Suggesting that every civilization or society is going to follow the exact development path to arrive at a similar place is illogical.

To Monahammer's point of, "What if intelligent sea creatures existed at once?" Maybe they still do, and maybe they are the remnants of the advanced civilization in question? USOs may be the proof of those civilizations still in existence. Again, you have to consider those options that make you most uncomfortable.

[troutman]

If an ancient Earth civilization made it to the moon, I think there would be evidence.

https://www.space.com/14740-footprints-moon.html

The first footprints put on the moon will probably be there a long, long time — maybe almost as long as the moon itself lasts.

Unlike on Earth, there is no erosion by wind or water on the moon because it has no atmosphere and all the water on the surface is frozen as ice. Also, there is no volcanic activity on the moon to change the lunar surface features. Nothing gets washed away, and nothing gets folded back inside.

However, the Moon is exposed to bombardment by meteorites, which change the surface. One little spacerock could easily wipe out a footprint on the moon. And since the Moon has no atmosphere, it is exposed to the solar wind, a stream of charged particles coming from the sun, and over time this acts almost like weather on Earth to scour surfaces on the moon, but the process is very, very slow.

How was the Moon Monolith discovered in 2001: A Space Odyssey?

https://2001.fandom.com/wiki/Monolith

The Tycho Monolith, designated TMA-1, was first discovered by humans on Earth's moon in 1999. TMA-1 was discovered when a low-altitude magnetic survey was done on the Moon, and an anomaly was shown in the data: an extremely intense magnetic field in the crater Tycho. At first, scientists thought it might be an outcrop of magnetic rock, but all the evidence was against it. Not even a giant nickel–iron meteorite could produce a field as intense as this. The source of the anomaly was found buried 40 feet below the lunar surface.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by troutman

If an ancient Earth civilization made it to the moon, I think there would be evidence.

https://www.space.com/14740-footprints-moon.html


How was the Moon Monolith discovered in 2001: A Space Odyssey?

https://2001.fandom.com/wiki/Monolith

Conversely, the moon is pretty uninteresting for habitation purposes (especially if you're an aquatic creature)

[Fuzz]

I'm not going to get into a New Era quote war, because nobody wants to see that, but damn...ok, so they are a super advanced civilization that now have transporters, but with small social units of a few people. How do you get there? How do you go from primitive to transporters, and not require the massive resource consumption of our current world? Are you mining materials with a couple people, shovel and a bucket? Refining ore? It doesn't make any sense.


Secondly, where in our evolutionary tree does this imaginary species exist? How do you slot them in, without any evidence? It's pure fantasy.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not going to get into a New Era quote war, because nobody wants to see that, but damn...ok, so they are a super advanced civilization that now have transporters, but with small social units of a few people. How do you get there? How do you go from primitive to transporters, and not require the massive resource consumption of our current world? Are you mining materials with a couple people, shovel and a bucket? Refining ore? It doesn't make any sense.


Secondly, where in our evolutionary tree does this imaginary species exist? How do you slot them in, without any evidence? It's pure fantasy.

I disagree with New Era's position for some of the same reasons you mentioned (primarily resource consumption to technological development), but I think the question of fit on the evolutionary tree is somewhat illogical.



These divisions were largely all present by ~250 million ya. Why limit our concept of intelligence to just one branch of life? That's where our evolutionary tree stems from.
There's also an unbelievable amount of diversity within that one branch of course. Even other higher order apes much closer to our evolutionary line show intelligence. But far afield, birds (particularly Corvids), cetaceans, and cephalopods show some notable indications of intelligence that we can recognize.

In short there are TONS of places that "intelligence" or advanced species could hide within the evolutionary tree of life.

Edit: or how about dinosaurs that had opposable thumbs? https://www.insider.com/meet-the-mon...-thumbs-2021-4

Really, convergent evolution shows us that it is indeed possible for completely different strands of the evolutionary chain to build towards the same goals and abilities. Now the question can become if intelligence and society can be considered similarly to opposable thumbs.

[Fuzz]

Ya, and I get that there are other forms of intelligent life. I more meant if we are dealing with one that can develop an advanced enough society to have transporters, we aren't talking about porpoises.

So if we assume having opposable thumbs, living on land, probably walking upright etc, we'd see some evidence before or after, of a possibility of that somewhere on the tree. We can trace the origins of humans back to mammals alive at the time of the dinosaurs, so where would this other advanced species fit in?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, and I get that there are other forms of intelligent life. I more meant if we are dealing with one that can develop an advanced enough society to have transporters, we aren't talking about porpoises.

So if we assume having opposable thumbs, living on land, probably walking upright etc, we'd see some evidence before or after, of a possibility of that somewhere on the tree. We can trace the origins of humans back to mammals alive at the time of the dinosaurs, so where would this other advanced species fit in?

Who says? Maybe porpoises are driving the tictac.
I think the best of NEs points here is that intelligent life or advanced society doesn't have to exist exactly as we believe it to.

In my own mind, a civilization developed enough to be considered advanced in the ways that we consider it would HAVE to have existed prior to the PT Event, or we would likely have seen more geological evidence. Even then we would still likely have found some evidence.

At these ages we're not talking about the ancestors to only mammals but the ancestors to land walking animals in general.

This is a long rabbit hole- advanced civilizations in Earth's historical past are exceptionally unlikely.

[Fuzz]

Ok ,so if it was in the Permian, lets look at what we have for life...

Terrestrial life in the Permian included diverse plants, fungi, arthropods, and various types of tetrapods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian


Fungi with transporters....wait, now we are getting into Star Trek Discovery territory...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not going to get into a New Era quote war, because nobody wants to see that, but damn...ok, so they are a super advanced civilization that now have transporters, but with small social units of a few people. How do you get there? How do you go from primitive to transporters, and not require the massive resource consumption of our current world? Are you mining materials with a couple people, shovel and a bucket? Refining ore? It doesn't make any sense.


Secondly, where in our evolutionary tree does this imaginary species exist? How do you slot them in, without any evidence? It's pure fantasy.

You are aware that the world population has been tiny for the vast majority of human history, and that humans have done some really amazing things with small populations? They pyramids were built around the globe when the world population was estimated at 45M people. The Egyptian empire that built the Giza pyramids was estimated to be 2.5-3M people. The entire Aztec empire reached a population of 6 million. The Mayan and Inca empires not much larger. Going further back and looking at the Sumerians, the height if their empire was estimated to be less than 2M. Small populations can achieve quite a lot. Thinking you need a population of several billion to do anything of note is just plain stupid.

Where did the technology come from? That's the question isn't it? We are in a thread about UFOs and UFO technology? Could it possibly have been gifted? Or is it possible the advanced civilization that was here colonized parts of the planet? Also, it isn't like people have been stupid through out the history of the species. Even though you would have us believe that we didn't become ultra smart until the Internet was invented (thanks Al Gore!) various cultures were incredibly advanced and it took centuries for man as a collective to catch up (math, astronomy, architecture, etc.). What is really strange is you seem to forget that many technologies and practices get "lost" over time. We still don't understand how some of these ancient civilizations did many of the things they did to construct such massive complexes with "no technology" and small populations. You don't think it is possible that technology was just lost or an advanced civilization and their technology could have died out while we went through a cycle like the dark ages? There are examples of civilizations all over the globe quickly disappearing. You don't think that if our civilization quickly died out that our technological secrets would die with us?

So where were in our evolutionary tree is this advanced civilization hiding? The last 25,000 years presents plenty of time for civilizations to develop and disappear, all around the globe. Especially if there is "outside" influence or assistance. It is possible that a small civilization developed that was technologically superior, but suffered from some catastrophic even that forced their collapse or possible departure? There are stories of such civilizations (Atlantis as an example), so what if these stories are actual oral histories? Too much of a challenge to your worldview?

[Fuzz]

I'm not forgetting any of those societies, they did amazing things with relatively primitive technology(relative to us, now). But if it was only 25 000 years ago the idea that their is no evidence of an advanced civilization becomes even harder to grasp. It's not like there is no evidence of human history collected and studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_prehistory

There are zero signs any of these ancestors could have had the technology to build an aeroplane, let alone a transporter. Judging by all we know of human nature, if one group had developed so rapidly and profoundly, they would have wiped everyone out. If they didn't follow human nature, they would have shared.

Does any serious anthropologist believe what you are suggesting as a remote possibility?

And if you want to go with the alien seed theory, well that presents all sorts of other contradictions. Why did they drop aliens here, and leave? Why is there no evidence of them? Would they not have influenced their environment in some way? I mean, the aliens as early earthlings then vanishing is probably the most probable of ideas, yet without evidence it's still just fantasy.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Recorded history, meaning discovered and understood. How would we know if we discovered something of significance if we didn't understand what the hell it was? Again, you're suggesting that we understand everything in and about or world. We don't. A recent discovery of a possible new particle may force us to rethink everything we thought we knew about physics and the universe around us.

I like how you trot out "serious anthropologist," suggesting anyone who doesn't agree with your worldview would not be considered serious. Check with those who study the Mesoamerican cultures and some of the artifacts they have discovered and see if they are serious enough for you. There are some pretty strange things that cannot be explained or explained away. But of course, they won't be considered "serious" by your standard, even though they would be considered experts on the cultures or civilizations they study.

On the alien seed theory...

Why did they drop aliens here, and leave? Observation? Experimentation? Colonization? Or how about Earth being a prison planet, much like Australia was for the British? I mean, why would anyone sail their prisoners half way around the world and release them on what they thought was a primitive island?

Why is there no evidence of them? How do know there isn't, and we just aren't seeing it? Maybe those that came here interbred with our ancestors, or maybe they just learned to blend in and ultimately became part of the herd? Or it could be that they keep to themselves in areas we aren't looking, like deep in the oceans? Or maybe, and this a really crazy thought, that during their observations they were not supposed to interact with those they were studying, but they did by accident and had to be pulled out. Happens all the time with field research, and you leave no long term evidence of your involvement.

Would they not have influenced their environment in some way? Why would they? And what would that influence on our environment look like? If they have craft that allow for interstellar or interdimensional travel it is very likely they have technology that would leave almost no trace to the environments they visit. Again, these are civilizations far more advanced than ours, so why would you think they would do anything to leave some permanent mark that would stand out physically in the environment? On the other side of that coin, maybe they did interact with the environment but nature has reclaimed those areas? Or maybe they interacted with the people, and the artifacts that are left in works of art or in carvings on their monuments are the evidence you're looking for? Or maybe the monuments may be the evidence itself? I'm not certain what exactly you're looking for here, because the environment is a pretty big topic.

[Fuzz]

Ok, so again, all fantasy. Makes for great sci-fi stories. I won't say it can't have happened, but it's just hand waving. Maybe Earth had an evil twin planet where aliens observed Earth, and when they were done observing, they sent it spiraling into the sun. There's no evidence of it, but you can't tell me it didn't happen. But it doesn't mean anything. Your just imaging stuff.

I'm aware of Mesoamerican society. I've yet to see any evidence that indicates anything like an advanced society. I don't doubt they had advanced understanding of some subjects, but that doesn't get us to where you are describing. If you have some, please share. If you know of serious anthropologists putting forth sound scientific theories on this, please share. I've yet to see any. All of it is just imagining possibilities. I don't really find that interesting, unless I'm reading/watching fantasy.

[Lanny_McDonald]

NVM, not worth it.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, and I get that there are other forms of intelligent life. I more meant if we are dealing with one that can develop an advanced enough society to have transporters, we aren't talking about porpoises.

So if we assume having opposable thumbs, living on land, probably walking upright etc, we'd see some evidence before or after, of a possibility of that somewhere on the tree. We can trace the origins of humans back to mammals alive at the time of the dinosaurs, so where would this other advanced species fit in?

Although, they are very grateful for all the fish, I hear.

[jayswin]

Despite the animosity, I've been really enthralled with the discussion between New Era and Fuzz. I probably fall somewhere in the middle after reading a couple of amazing books, but fascinating to hear people go back and forth on this topic from totally different points of view.

[troutman]

Technology Worship and Human Debasement in Erich von Däniken’s ‘Chariots of the Gods?’
https://wearethemutants.com/2017/02/...s-of-the-gods/

The entirety of Däniken’s proof that ancient aliens have visited the human race rests on his belittlement of the “primitive peoples” and “savages” who he says “could not have produced” elaborate wall paintings, architectural marvels, accurate calendars, accurate maps, and imaginative religious literature on their own.

The implication, at the very least, is that pre-modern European races were perfectly capable of developing a unique culture without otherworldly assistance. Their innate intelligence is unquestioned. “Jungle people,” on the other hand…

For all of that, there is a lingering appeal to the ancient alien hypothesis that I can understand, that I’ve harbored since my first viewing, as a child, of the Serling-narrated In Search of Ancient Astronauts. It mythologizes and sanctifies our cosmic curiosity, our yearning for poetic magic in a time of corporate science and corporate religion; and, unlike the strictures of those embedded institutions, it offers us the power to become as gods. Däniken’s repackaged messianic myth is very much an occult doctrine in that way, but married to the materialist mindset voiced by Arthur C. Clarke’s dictum that “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Alas, the cult of Däniken is the dream of a child who wants to be grown up all at once, without having to climb the long and painful path that becomes, when one no longer wants anything to do with it, adulthood. It’s entirely possible that somewhere among the stars is a species capable of both the technological miracles that Däniken worships and the benevolence and wisdom that he dismisses. Maybe in the fullness of time, when we stop acting on the primitive impulses that drive Chariots of the Gods?, we’ll be worthy of them—and worthy of ourselves.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Does science say that? I'm not sure I believe that. In the past 100 years we have rapidly becoming the dominant species on Earth, molding all facets of the environment to our needs. And you are saying there would be zero evidence of that, despite us finding all manner of fossils from far far less dominant species?

Yeah I guess what's left of plastics and I guess even nuclear waste could survive a few million years but would a future species be able to identify it as coming from past intelligent life form? plastics would just be a small polymer sediment found in future canyons and nuclear waste could be identified as remnants from the solar system forming super nova, it's not like they're going to find an intact iPhone or a H-bomb, from tectonic plate subduction that buries everything 1000's of feet to the simple material breakdown the planet has a way to hide it's past.

And what you call fossils from a far far less dominant species is very wrong, Dinosaurs ruled this planet for 165 million years, we are talking trillions and trillions of mostly large retiles that lived and died over those years, we have a long way to go and I highly doubt we'll come close.