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Old 10-04-2022, 11:43 AM   #301
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This second option gives you 2 interchangeable, elite pairs that can skate and move the puck with/against almost any players in the league. By Zadorov taking on a bigger role, Sutter likely means anchoring a pair vs just being there, and we can read into that however we want.

For me, considering waivers and career arcs, you need to get Mackey into NHL action or you might as well cut bait. He's proving more and more to be a capable and cheap 3rd pair defender that can also skate and move the puck. Maybe he even evolves into more with time. The best way to do this is for him to play the third pair under the guidance of Zadorov every day until Kylington returns.

It's up to Stone-Valimaki-Meloche to battle it out as the 7th.
From what I have seen so far I don't think we have talked enough about Zadorov this preseason. He looks really good, mean, mobile, and seems more comfortable in his role. Maybe its the security of the long term deal 2 years lol, but I have liked what I seen so far and wouldn't be upset with him on the 2nd pair.

He does have bouts of turning into Bobby Orr at times, but I think there is more to give.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:49 AM   #302
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Monahan was 9th among forwards last year, with 23 pts in 65 games (a 29 pt pace). That is pretty standard for any team's 9th forward.

Over the last 2 seasons, Rooney has played at an 18 pt pace. I would suspect that if he plays with Backlund and Coleman, he will likely be up in the mid 20s, at least. And the line will give up next to nothing, defensively.

Having said all that, I imagine Zohorna may end up being slotted there, with Rooney moving to the 4th line.
I'm not fussed about offence from a guy like Rooney. Just positive play. Given Backlund's role, if Rooney can check effectively against top lines, I'm happy with him on the line.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:50 AM   #303
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From what I have seen so far I don't think we have talked enough about Zadorov this preseason. He looks really good, mean, mobile, and seems more comfortable in his role. Maybe its the security of the long term deal 2 years lol, but I have liked what I seen so far and wouldn't be upset with him on the 2nd pair.

He does have bouts of turning into Bobby Orr at times, but I think there is more to give.
A player that if he stays within himself, can be very effective and useful. Asking him to play against the top lines and with far more polished Flames defensemen will likely take him out of his sweet spot if you ask me. It also diminishes the impact Tanev should be having on the lineup in general as you can't expect him to play the EV minutes he normally would alongside Mackey on the 3rd pairing.

For me it's just not the play to try and spread the wealth. Zadorov-Mackey could be an above average 3rd pair on their own and there is little reason to construct an inferior second pairing when the alternative is far greater and interchangeable top 2 pairs by keeping Zadorov down the lineup where he can excel.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:57 AM   #304
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I'm not fussed about offence from a guy like Rooney. Just positive play. Given Backlund's role, if Rooney can check effectively against top lines, I'm happy with him on the line.
The big worry was him impacting the possession metrics on a Backlund line. Backlund and his line mates have traditionally carried played, and created chances and Rooney's numbers in New York looked bad in terms of advanced stats. It may have also been a result of playing in the New York system which got caved in most nights and relied on the goalie.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:01 PM   #305
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A player that if he stays within himself, can be very effective and useful. Asking him to play against the top lines and with far more polished Flames defensemen will likely take him out of his sweet spot if you ask me. It also diminishes the impact Tanev should be having on the lineup in general as you can't expect him to play the EV minutes he normally would alongside Mackey on the 3rd pairing.

For me it's just not the play to try and spread the wealth. Zadorov-Mackey could be an above average 3rd pair on their own and there is little reason to construct an inferior second pairing when the alternative is far greater and interchangeable top 2 pairs by keeping Zadorov down the lineup where he can excel.
Yeah, I prefer the top strong 4 model to trying to run 3 equal pairs. You end up weakening guys like Tanev and Weegar who naturally should play big minutes. I think Z and Mackey/Meloche benefit from limited exposure.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:06 PM   #306
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I'm not fussed about offence from a guy like Rooney. Just positive play. Given Backlund's role, if Rooney can check effectively against top lines, I'm happy with him on the line.
Yeah, I have seen this a few times between last night and today from posters concerned about that line's production, which is ridiculous to me. Both Coleman and Backlund are consistent, every-day 40-point players. That is tremendous production coming from the third line.

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Old 10-04-2022, 12:07 PM   #307
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What's the point of augmenting our third line with Backlund-Coleman being staples, when we're not fussed about their offense?

Tampas 3rd liners had around ~40 points, while colorados were mid 30 points last season, for comparison.

Zohorna may be the ticket, with Rooney centering line 4. But I think we have to be somewhat worried about potentially muting some of the offense that Backlund and Coleman can bring.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:29 PM   #308
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What's the point of augmenting our third line with Backlund-Coleman being staples, when we're not fussed about their offense?

Tampas 3rd liners had around ~40 points, while colorados were mid 30 points last season, for comparison.

Zohorna may be the ticket, with Rooney centering line 4. But I think we have to be somewhat worried about potentially muting some of the offense that Backlund and Coleman can bring.
Production from the 7 - 9 forwards last year:

TBL: 40, 39, 27
COL: 33, 33, 24

Backlund 39, Coleman 33. If Rooney gets into the mid-twenties playing with them (seems reasonable), their 3rd line production would be identical to TBL and better than COL
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:35 PM   #309
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He was, but when asked about Stone he made an odd comment about how Stone's game needs to evolve and its not just about scoring goals.

Stone's game isn't going to evolve. He is what he is.
Agreed, but I think it was an odd question versus an odd answer. Darryl treated it as such.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:36 PM   #310
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Production from the 7 - 9 forwards last year:

TBL: 40, 39, 27
COL: 33, 33, 24

Backlund 39, Coleman 33. If Rooney gets into the mid-twenties playing with them (seems reasonable), their 3rd line production would be identical to TBL and better than COL
Colorado had much more O from back end to compensate. In terms of offense needed, i think we need to aim close to the Tampa layout.
I don't know, I think we need to look at 30 points as a minimum expectation for a 3rd line forward playing with quality linemates like Backlund and Coleman.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:26 PM   #311
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Colorado had much more O from back end to compensate. In terms of offense needed, i think we need to aim close to the Tampa layout.
I don't know, I think we need to look at 30 points as a minimum expectation for a 3rd line forward playing with quality linemates like Backlund and Coleman.
This is not how it works.

The idea is to outscore the opponent, not to get as many goals as possible (i.e. it is a two-way game).

A 3rd line of Rooney - Backlund - Coleman would be among the best 3rd lines in the league. Full stop. Analyzing it, based on the point total of the 3rd player on the line, is missing the plot.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:31 PM   #312
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This is not how it works.

The idea is to outscore the opponent, not to get as many goals as possible (i.e. it is a two-way game).

A 3rd line of Rooney - Backlund - Coleman would be among the best 3rd lines in the league. Full stop. Analyzing it, based on the point total of the 3rd player on the line, is missing the plot.
You speak in such ridiculous absolutes. Why not analyze it from every angle? Isn't that what we do here?

What's the point of even playing then? Just hand out the trophy lol.

More points= more likely to win. It's the simplest analysis you can make in a game that's about scoring more points than the other team.

Until they play against a real NHL line in a real game, it is still an open question whether these three will effectively shut down an opposition together. Just as open a question as their potential offensive production with eachother.

Some of you feign prescience in these matters altogether to frequently. Y'all don't know ####, you're just dummies talking hockey on the internet. Like me!
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:34 PM   #313
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You speak in such ridiculous absolutes. Why not analyze it from every angle? Isn't that what we do here?

What's the point of even playing then? Just hand out the trophy lol.

More points= more likely to win. It's the simplest analysis you can make in a game that's about scoring more points than the other team.

Until they play against a real NHL line in a real game, it is still an open question whether these three will effectively shut down an opposition together. Just as open a question as their potential offensive production with eachother.

Some of you feign prescience in these matters altogether to frequently. Y'all don't know ####, you're just dummies talking hockey on the internet. Like me!
that is all
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:38 PM   #314
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that is all
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:11 AM   #315
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You speak in such ridiculous absolutes. Why not analyze it from every angle? Isn't that what we do here?

What's the point of even playing then? Just hand out the trophy lol.

More points= more likely to win.
So do you want to hand out the Stanley Cup to the team that scores the most goals?

Just as a reminder, the last time Darryl Sutter won the Stanley Cup, his team finished 1st in goals against, but 25th in goals for.
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Old 10-05-2022, 04:00 AM   #316
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What's the point of augmenting our third line with Backlund-Coleman being staples, when we're not fussed about their offense?

Tampas 3rd liners had around ~40 points, while colorados were mid 30 points last season, for comparison.

Zohorna may be the ticket, with Rooney centering line 4. But I think we have to be somewhat worried about potentially muting some of the offense that Backlund and Coleman can bring.
I think Rooney earned himself a spot on the 3rd line based on his camp.
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:11 PM   #317
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From what I have seen so far I don't think we have talked enough about Zadorov this preseason. He looks really good, mean, mobile, and seems more comfortable in his role. Maybe its the security of the long term deal 2 years lol, but I have liked what I seen so far and wouldn't be upset with him on the 2nd pair.



He does have bouts of turning into Bobby Orr at times, but I think there is more to give.
Sutter has also mentioned how Zadorov has looked good in camp and came prepared.
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:11 PM   #318
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@WesGilbertson

Major controversy at #Flames morning skate in Winnipeg, where teammates were trying to tell Nikita Zadorov that his nickname is now 'Little Z.' Apparently they've decided that Radim Zohorna is taller. Hence, a new 'Big Z.' Developing story.
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