New Flames Arena - The CP Historical Record

[browna]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Nice work, Barnes.

This is really key to me, and I have to wonder if CSEG never did form with the purchase of the Stampeders whether the Flames would now be playing in a new arena.

The Flames missed their window in the late 2000s. I know a bit about the inner workings at that time; they had the desire to move and had done a fair bit of legwork in they initial 2006 time frame. The Dome couldn’t be renovated any longer, seating or ice plant or concessions, and they were losing out big time on $200k boxes which they didn’t have enough of, to sell.. They also wanted out from under the Stampede board and had various land holdings, including but not limited to the West end of downtown, to evaluate for the location. From what I understand, they had blueprints started etc back then.

But,they waited a bit too long to make the final decisions, and then the economic downturn in 08/09 put it on hold when in hindsight they should’ve pushed. Then I am sure, as you mentioned, the talk of the Stamps and forming a biggger group, gave way to a larger scale plan and CalgaryNext was born.

Then, toss in a flood and the owners paying a large chunk of funds to get the rink ready in time for October (doesn’t get mentioned here much, certainly when slagging the owners) and governmental changes, and sure, social media uprising, and the Flames lost their window to be in control of the project they way they likely would’ve been in 2007.

[the-rasta-masta]

It would be wonderful if one of our Sports journalists in Calgary would do an article constructed in much the same way as Barnes' posts in this thread. Dig back in their archives for some quotes would probably produce a pretty good piece of investigative journalism. Would love to ask Ken about some of his previous quotes....

[Corral]

yup, this is one of the most valuable contributions of a forum like CP to public discourse. Nice work Barnes.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

It would be wonderful if one of our Sports journalists in Calgary would do an article constructed in much the same way as Barnes' posts in this thread. Dig back in their archives for some quotes would probably produce a pretty good piece of investigative journalism. Would love to ask Ken about some of his previous quotes....

If there's one thing I've learned from this arena debacle, it's that Calgary sports writers/media don't bite the hand that feeds

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

It would be wonderful if one of our Sports journalists in Calgary would do an article constructed in much the same way as Barnes' posts in this thread. Dig back in their archives for some quotes would probably produce a pretty good piece of investigative journalism. Would love to ask Ken about some of his previous quotes....

Except is that really fair? I think Ken King is a questionable character and he deserves all of the public flogging he is getting right now, but I think some of these "quotes" are unfair to him. Some of these were made before the Edmonton arena deal came to fruition, and when the economy and dollar was better. This context is important. I think that at the time he was sharing what the strategy was at the time, and doing so honestly. Beat the man up for his recent statements, even some of his dumber statements, but hitting him with stuff where the economic climate for a deal has changed so much really doesn't see fair. I would extend the same courtesy to Nenshi as well. Now, back to the regularly scheduled effigy burning.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Corral

yup, this is one of the most valuable contributions of a forum like CP to public discourse. Nice work Barnes.

Whoa Whoa Whoa... if CP didn't exist then Barnes could have posted this to any other forum, This isn't a CP contribution to public discourse it's a Barnes Contribution! #KenKingLogic

[GGG]

Well not asking for tax payer dollars was always a clear lie from day one. I don't think context can explain away that one. Same with not threatening to move. Both of these were going to happen at some point and he knew it at the time he made the lies.

[JFK]

New Flames Arena - The CP Historical Record (Ken King Please Read)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

It would be wonderful if one of our Sports journalists in Calgary would do an article constructed in much the same way as Barnes' posts in this thread. Dig back in their archives for some quotes would probably produce a pretty good piece of investigative journalism. Would love to ask Ken about some of his previous quotes....

Except that I am not sure what purpose any of that would serve. As already mentioned, because this has been an ongoing story for over a decade numerous circumstances have changed and effectively altered many of the owners original plans and expectations.

I appreciate the legwork that Barnes has done here primarily because he has set the whole conversation in its appropriate diachronic context, which essentially helps to show why the CSEG is so strongly committed to CalgaryNEXT.

[mikephoen]

I think the most important line in Barnes' summary is this:

06-22-2011
Harley Hotchkiss passes away

After that, everything changed. And none of it for the better.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Changed his tune quite a bit didn't he.

Him / ownership have pretty much gone against everything they've said and promised. Maybe they should go back and review everything they told the 'citizens' in the past then tell us again just how unreasonable the city proposal is.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Somebody should email this summary to Ken King himself.

[Cube Inmate]

I remember the talk of Minny's and Columbus' arenas as models to build on. Arenas that are now HALF as old as the Saddledome.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

diachronic context

I had a bout of that in ‘97, knocked me on my ass for about a week.

[GullFoss]

This is great work.

[Passe La Puck]

Nenshi has been cockblocking them for 12 years!

[Passe La Puck]

Originally Posted by browna

Then, toss in a flood and the owners paying a large chunk of funds to get the rink ready in time for October (doesn’t get mentioned here much, certainly when slagging the owners) and governmental changes, and sure, social media uprising, and the Flames lost their window to be in control of the project they way they likely would’ve been in 2007.

I thought it cost 3m for flood repairs? Is that not the case?

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by browna

Then, toss in a flood and the owners paying a large chunk of funds to get the rink ready in time for October (doesn’t get mentioned here much, certainly when slagging the owners)

I've seen this point made a few times here, and I don't see its relevance considering the owners would have been reimbursed nearly in full for this cost through insurance. As a business owner myself, if I have to front some costs while waiting on an insurance company payout, I do that every time if it means I'm open for business again sooner. I certainly don't look at the Flames owners paying some costs upfront to get the Dome ready for paid butts in the seats come October as a favour to anybody but themselves....

.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

I've seen this point made a few times here, and I don't see its relevance considering the owners would have been reimbursed nearly in full for this cost through insurance. As a business owner myself, if I have to front some costs while waiting on an insurance company payout, I do that every time if it means I'm open for business again sooner. I certainly don't look at the Flames owners paying some costs upfront to get the Dome ready for paid butts in the seats come October as a favour to anybody but themselves....

.

I believe it has been posted that their insurance didn't cover repairs

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

I believe it has been posted that their insurance didn't cover repairs

They never said what it cost or who paid for it when asked. I was going to make mention of it in the timeline but I figured, if they didn’t have insurance that made them whole or business continuity insurance, that’s their own failure. It’s not like the trades were taken off the new arena and put on flood repairs.

If the flood of 2013 never happened, we’d still be here.