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Old 07-09-2018, 02:18 PM   #41
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You're wrong and you should feel bad.
Thats my secret nik....I always feel bad...
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:21 PM   #42
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Thats my secret nik....I always feel bad...
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:24 PM   #43
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According to RT more people didn't like the movie than did.


On the original trilogy those movies hold up they are enjoyable to watch. They have a charm and honesty about them.
I get that a lot of people didn't care for the movie and a lot have very legitimate criticisms. But I do think the online reviews were definitely manipulated by various online groups with agendas. So I wouldn't quote that as being anything meaningful.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:27 PM   #44
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Did these groups also prevent people from buying tickets to Solo? Why isn't Solo's RT user score nearly as poor as TLJ?
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:32 PM   #45
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I get that a lot of people didn't care for the movie and a lot have very legitimate criticisms. But I do think the online reviews were definitely manipulated by various online groups with agendas. So I wouldn't quote that as being anything meaningful.
And heres my issue with that:

I see that and of course I also think theres something fishy going on there, you can never discount the idea that the Evil Mouse Empire would do something to manipulate the ratings via various agencies.

I'm sure they have the capability and the will to use it.

But at the same time, I can also see why, based on the film itself, those ratings are all over the place without any need of underhandedness or foul play.

The average casual fan is going to love that movie. Superficially it was a lot of fun it had minor story-progress that someone not infatuated with Star Wars can easily follow.

Its baby food. Even people with no teeth can eat it.

The hardcore fan is going to hate that movie. Plethora of reasons, not going into all of them but space-Leia was dumb, ships all of a sudden needing gas is dumb, dropping bombs in space is dumb, etc and so on and so forth, you get the idea.

You've ordered a steak and the waiter brought you baby food.

Then theres the racist misogynists. Theres nothing you can do to please these people so they should probably be dismissed out of hand. Unfortunately even racist misogynists have an unalienable right to post youtube comments and vote on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes which is why you have to take those ratings with a grain of salt and assume, for the most part, that they will eventually resume to the mean.

They were served baby food but they wanted to eat the baby instead. And the colour, gender and ethnicity of that baby is very, very important to them.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:34 PM   #46
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I will give it this though, the hyperdrive attack was probably the coolest looking shot in all 8 movies.
Maybe I missed something, maybe the nerds have some science behind it. But why didn't the Rebels not just do that to the Deathstar in A New Hope?

They went on a suicide longshot run, with some farm boy who believed he could hit an impossible shot. But that's all they had, so they had to do it.

Now we're to believe they could have just sent a ship or two with a single pilot to kamikaze the Deathstar?

Cool shot, poor story telling.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:54 PM   #47
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Maybe I missed something, maybe the nerds have some science behind it. But why didn't the Rebels not just do that to the Deathstar in A New Hope?

They went on a suicide longshot run, with some farm boy who believed he could hit an impossible shot. But that's all they had, so they had to do it.

Now we're to believe they could have just sent a ship or two with a single pilot to kamikaze the Deathstar?

Cool shot, poor story telling.
Why didn't anyone fly a jumbo jet into a skyscraper until 2001? Skyscrapers, jumbo jets, terrorists, and hijackers had all been around for decades at that point in history.

Why isn't it enough of an explanation to simply say, "no one had thought to do it before"?


There are many things in life that make you say, "why didn't someone think of this sooner?" when you see them for the first time.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:13 PM   #48
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Why didn't anyone fly a jumbo jet into a skyscraper until 2001? Skyscrapers, jumbo jets, terrorists, and hijackers had all been around for decades at that point in history.

Why isn't it enough of an explanation to simply say, "no one had thought to do it before"?


There are many things in life that make you say, "why didn't someone think of this sooner?" when you see them for the first time.
If the Skyscraper existed for the sole purpose of blowing up the planet, I'm sure we would have seen every single plane suicide bomb it before it got constructed.

The first recorded suicide attack by plane during wartime happened in 1914, Pearl Habor allegedly had one and then became a 'common' tactic by the Japanese before the end of WW2.

So we are to believe that none of the commanders, or pilots, had thought to just drive their plan through a planet destroyer when they are already going on suicide missions? "Didn't think of it" isn't a valid excuse, there's not much to think of.

If Lord of the Rings had someone take the ring at the end and smash it with a normal hammer to destroy it - and no one had thought about it before - that would have been the stupidest deus ex machina in cinema history. Actually terrible example because of the eagles, but still.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
Maybe I missed something, maybe the nerds have some science behind it. But why didn't the Rebels not just do that to the Deathstar in A New Hope?

They went on a suicide longshot run, with some farm boy who believed he could hit an impossible shot. But that's all they had, so they had to do it.

Now we're to believe they could have just sent a ship or two with a single pilot to kamikaze the Deathstar?

Cool shot, poor story telling.

The Death Star was protected by a heavy shield and it was a massive heavily armed battlestation. Remember that in the second one they had a SSD crash into the surface and it pretty much blew up on the surface.


Hitting the Death Star a moon sized object with a cruiser even at hyperspace would likely be like shooting a human with a .22 and it would have been difficult to hit the reactor in the middle of it, or damage enough equipment to cause a catastrophic reaction. We saw with the DS2 how dense the inside on the station was.



There was very little livable space inside of the death star, most of the population lived on the surface, the inside was packed with equipment and piping, and the chamber surrounding the hyperspace reactor was shielded and armored unlike the second one which wasn't complete.


A Mon Calamari cruiser was 1200 meters long and the DS1 was 160 km's wide.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:36 PM   #50
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I must be in the extreme minority, but I enjoyed the Finn/Rose part... not the action specifically, but for the following reasons:

1) It was cool to see the rich elite in the Star Wars Universe - up until then it was always military vs poor rebels.
2) The idea that the elite weren't bothered by this war, and weren't bothered by planets literally being blown up as they made money on both sides
3) Most importantly - this arc was useless and unnecessary, and IMO that was the point. The entire theme of the movie was "sometimes doing the heroic thing is the WRONG thing to do" - Poe got nailed for it after destroying their fleet of bombers for one destroyer take down. Finn and Rose went to do the standard "heroic" thing, and not only were they unsuccessful, they ended up costing the lives of many of the rebels as it was Del Toro's character who alerted the FO to the small ships departing the main one.

Hard for me to put into words ATM, but I like the idea that TLJ took the trope of the plucky heroes overcome all odds and save the day, and turned it into the plucky heroes end up decimating their own side due to them not wanting to "play it safe"

Now, Snoke and Phasma going out like punks... I didn't like that so much. I agree with CC that Kylo Ren is a pretty boring villain.

Overall I give TLJ a big "meh" - that's how I felt when I left the theatre, and it's how I still feel.

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Old 07-09-2018, 03:43 PM   #51
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Phasma going out like a punk was one of the best parts of the movie. What an lame character.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:14 PM   #52
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The Death Star was protected by a heavy shield and it was a massive heavily armed battlestation. Remember that in the second one they had a SSD crash into the surface and it pretty much blew up on the surface.

Hitting the Death Star a moon sized object with a cruiser even at hyperspace would likely be like shooting a human with a .22 and it would have been difficult to hit the reactor in the middle of it, or damage enough equipment to cause a catastrophic reaction. We saw with the DS2 how dense the inside on the station was.
Personally, I doubt it matters how shielded or dense the ship is. Hyperspace has to provide a ridiculous amount of force on whatever it strikes. You're right about the size being a factor. Snoke's ship is huge but not very tall, so that slice worked out nicely. Hitting the Death Star would put a hole in it but unless you nail critical systems probably not put it out of commission.

Also, this wouldn't be the first sci-fi series to do something because it was cool and not worry about the story ramifications. Let's just enjoy a really awesome moment, shall we?
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:20 PM   #53
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It is kind of funny to look back at the first couple pages of reviews from the Last Jedi thread...I feel like I pretty much nailed my review.

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Thought it was good but not great. Think I liked Force Awakens better.

One that I think the diehard fans of the series won’t like as much as the general public. Fans of the series want the history to be present and on the forefront. So not having Snoke be important with a back story, and not revealing Rey’s parents as a “Skywalker or Kenobi” means that it breaks that history.

For me personally there were just some parts that dragged on and they didn’t leave enough (any?) sort of cliffhanger at the end. Could go anywhere from here and I feel like a bit more suspense at the end would have helped it all.

For me the tone at the end of that movie felt like the end of an arc - which is maybe what they wanted with Luke/Hans dead and Carrie gone in real life. Would not be surprised at all if Carrie’s death gets mentioned in the scroll of 9 and it starts with her funeral.
It's also why I think Disney is going to have a hard time generating hype for Episode IX. They closed off the past heros arcs already with Luke and Hans being gone, they didn't really leave a big cliffhanger on Snoke or Rey's parentage (unless they turn that back around), and there aren't any real questions about Kylo/Rey's motives at this point.

It's hard to speculate about where this movie could go because really at this point it could go anywhere - almost feels like the start of a new trilogy at this point rather than a continuation of the last two (which kind of feel like there own "tying the past to the future" two part mini-series).

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Old 07-09-2018, 07:19 PM   #54
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ian-xi-1125818


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Old 07-09-2018, 07:40 PM   #55
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I guess I don't get why everyone thinks that TFA was so awesome in comparison.
I don't think TFA was awesome. I though it was just good and a decent starting point but they were supposed to get better not worse after that. In a lot of ways Rogue One was better than TFA as at least it was original as TFA was basically cut and paste from the original trilogy.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:10 PM   #56
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Thankfully you're not making the movie?
I agree with that.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:17 PM   #57
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The sooner this trilogy ends the better. So tired and old. Rogue One is by far the best star wars movie since Empire Strikes Back - and it is good because it has its own storyline embedded within the larger picture. The last scene with Vader destroying rebel fighters is everything star wars.

I'm still in disbelief that the best villain these new writers could come up with was Solo's son. Totally lame.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:39 PM   #58
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Nobody is wrong for disliking a movie. It's all subjective. For some folks, TLJ just didn't deliver what they wanted to see, which is fine. Star Wars fans can be an ornery bunch and they'll never agree on anything (except for Empire of course). I don't think any filmmaker on earth could ever completely satisfy the fans at this point, and I imagine trying to write and direct one of these movies must be the most stressful thing ever.

Personally I enjoyed TLJ a lot. I thought it was beautifully shot with some great action sequences, wonderful character moments, and terrific acting, particularly from Hamill, Ridley, and Driver.

I loved what they did with Luke's story arc and I enjoyed pretty much all of the Rey/Kylo moments, especially the kick-ass fight scene with the Praetorian guards. And the entire sequence with Yoda was just perfect. The music, the dialogue, Hamill's acting, the use of an actual puppet, and Frank Oz doing the voice again...everything just worked beautifully in that scene.

Does the movie have it's flaws? For sure. Flying space Leia was really dumb. The Canto Bight scenes didn't really do it for me, and Benicio del Toro's character kind of annoyed me. But those are minor complaints. Overall I thought it was solid entertainment from beginning to end and a worthy addition to the franchise. After watching it again on bluray recently, I think I liked it even more.

I'm about 10 years to young for a first run viewing of ESB, so I grew up with a constant awareness of that movie, not remembering the first time I saw the plot play out.

I think due to this I never got it. As a young kid, ANH was a simple heroes journey, easy to understand, you knew you were to identify with Luke, the movie a 7 year in the analog era could latch onto. ROTJ was fun action packed, had teddy bears in it, my 6 year old today is clear that 1) music 2) ewokes 3) droids are the best parts of star wars. But ESB was this dark disjointed story with a revile that seemed obvious in that it contained information I had always known, it did little more for me that bridge the gap between the two fun movies I identified with.

Growing up, I did start to enjoy ROTJ less for it needless goofiness (especially in light of PM playing off that tradition with complete failure), and I did started to enjoy ESB for showing allot more depth of story telling than the other two movies. But still I did not get it as a bigger moment in movie history than ANH, the original that started this all.

But then this year I went to Infinity War. Going into the theater skeptical that they could hold over a dozen principal characters together in a coherent story line, vaguely aware that our heroes were doomed to lose this match. I still got to that movie utterly impressed how well the framed every character as an active movie piece in the story, how plot lines weaved in and out of each other, and that they wer not only bold enough to go through with the snap, but just how deep the cut truly went. Then I looked back and saw how much better movies like Dr Strange and Age of Ultron are with the benefit of understanding the characters better and the story they were building towards. After seeing that, I finally think I understand the experience people speak about in reference to ESB, but for me ANH is still #1.


All of that said TLJ rant;

Has allot of interesting things to say about the key themes of Star Wars, Light vs Dark, Hope vs Hopelessness, Courage vs Practicality. Just because this movie found a different lens to view these from does not mean it was not addressing the same themes.

The Luke retreat to hiding, is perfectly in line with every bit of training he ever had, Uncle Owen told him to keep his head down and be fearful, ObiWan watched over him in hiding for near two decades, Yoda sensing defeat isolated himself and resisted rebuilding the Jedi. There is no reason we should have expected anything less from Luke.

Lukes death was poetically perfect. The raw expression of power completely absorbing his entire being, The longing for home which he was so eager to run away from, the final act off hopeful defiance.

While the car chaise scene was a bit much, I though the last moments when unshielded transports were literally being shot down like fish in a barrel created some of the best dramatic suspense in the star wars series. And I thought the Kamakazi hyperspace attack was a fair resolution for the viewers.

Reys ending was a fun bit of hopeful irony, after being told the force is not about lifting rocks and stuff, she finally gets to be a hero by using the force to lift rocks and stuff. Its just good story telling. Note through all of TFA the only person she was really trying to save was herself, the escape from the cave was her second act of true heroism towards someone else, the first and only other one being towards BB8 on Jakku.

The Leia space thing bugged me allot of first viewing, I think going in with knowledge of real world events, it so deeply violated my expectations. But it seems little more than a passing incident now on my third viewing.

Kilo went from the worst villain in starwars history, to at the very least the best motivated villain in star wars history. In a half dozen short scenes they accomplished the objective of the entire first trilogy.

Poe's extra screen time was a welcome addition. Star Wars needs and shooting from the hip fly boy to balance out the lofty goals of the rebels.

Kato Bight was a waste of time and a poor use of Fins character, but I think they needed to distract us while they built up the suspense in the car chaise scene. Poorly executed, but effectively managed it's goal.

Snook and Pasma unceremonious deaths, who cares. This isn't the Snook saga, he was a casualty that allowed Kilo to step up and assume a higher mantel than Vader who never escaped the yoke of the Emperor. And Pasma was a crap character, replace her with generic male voice white storm trooper completely and the needle doesn't move at all on either movie.

Saying this movie needs to be redone in a frame that better fits your personal expectations just doesn't square with my experience. That movie was good Star Wars.
(I be perfectly happy to see I / II / III redone in a fashion that better suits expectations, so I'm not against the concept of making those types of complaints).

/rant

Personally I'm pretty excited for IX. I think they have shrunk this down to a very small personal conflict, and it allows them to go in almost any direction they want.

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Old 07-10-2018, 12:39 AM   #59
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The sooner this trilogy ends the better. So tired and old. Rogue One is by far the best star wars movie since Empire Strikes Back - and it is good because it has its own storyline embedded within the larger picture. The last scene with Vader destroying rebel fighters is everything star wars.

I'm still in disbelief that the best villain these new writers could come up with was Solo's son. Totally lame.

It wasn't even an original idea, they went into the Legends EU and took Jacen Solo who was Leia and Hans son and made him a villain and actually made him a far more frightening and unstable villain then Kylo Ren.


Basically to summerize things up.


Jacen Solo was an incredibly powerful force user, at some point he was seduced into thinking that the galaxy would continue to flounder and fight itself and his destiny was to become a Sith Lord and rule the Galaxy, but he thought he could use the darkside while not falling to its more negative aspects.


But that didn't work, he became more and more unstable and genocidal. He eventually grew to hate Luke and he tried to arrest and then murder his parents. The reason why a lot of diehards jumped on the back of Rey is Leia and Hans kid and Kylo's sister was because Jacen had a twin sister named Jaina who in the end killed her twin brother.


Realistically and honestly between the reuse of the themes of return of the Empire and a new hope and borrowing from the EU this trilogy isn't really a new story, and that's the problem, at its level the ST feels like a rehash of stories that have been done before, and they're not integrated very well. Because of that you get a flat villain like Ren who at his core isn't that interesting or even dangerous and you get a new empire run by complete idiots like Phasma, Hux and even Snoke, who haven't really had that moment where they felt all that dangerous or frightening. In fact that whole prank phone call pushed Hux beyond a complete incompetent. Phasma had shiny armor but at the core she was a bumbling stormtrooper, the only thing they didn't do is have her bang her head off of the bulk heads. As far as Snoke goes, they did a bigger disservice to him then Palpatine, by ripping off the same betrayal as Vader throwing his master down a unnecessary laundry chute in the middle of the throne room.


Canto Bright was a bit of a good leap in showing the shades of grey in the galaxy where the rich run roughshod over the poor, and get their fortune by exploiting war, but the characters in the middle of it just weren't great. Like I said I get the betrayal for money by a guy that's basically saying that you might as well just get what you want and not get involved, but it felt lazy to me.


I'm interested in seeing what Filoni can do to fix the first order with the Resistance animated series. I mean he went a long way in fixing the transition between TCW and ROTS, and made Anakins fall seem more logical. He did a amazing job of showing the transition to the Empire at what was really its height in Rebels. But can he make the First Order frightening.


At the same time, I have this fear that they're reading the perceptions of the TLJ and this trilogy and they're going to try to repair it by jamming a ton of fixes and OMG moments into the last film.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:38 AM   #60
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I must be in the extreme minority, but I enjoyed the Finn/Rose part... not the action specifically, but for the following reasons:

1) It was cool to see the rich elite in the Star Wars Universe - up until then it was always military vs poor rebels.
2) The idea that the elite weren't bothered by this war, and weren't bothered by planets literally being blown up as they made money on both sides
3) Most importantly - this arc was useless and unnecessary, and IMO that was the point. The entire theme of the movie was "sometimes doing the heroic thing is the WRONG thing to do" - Poe got nailed for it after destroying their fleet of bombers for one destroyer take down. Finn and Rose went to do the standard "heroic" thing, and not only were they unsuccessful, they ended up costing the lives of many of the rebels as it was Del Toro's character who alerted the FO to the small ships departing the main one.

Hard for me to put into words ATM, but I like the idea that TLJ took the trope of the plucky heroes overcome all odds and save the day, and turned it into the plucky heroes end up decimating their own side due to them not wanting to "play it safe"

Now, Snoke and Phasma going out like punks... I didn't like that so much. I agree with CC that Kylo Ren is a pretty boring villain.

Overall I give TLJ a big "meh" - that's how I felt when I left the theatre, and it's how I still feel.
The concept of the scene itself was fine, it was the execution that was the problem. It was way too long and slap sticky. It just reeked of some corporate exec demanding the movie be more lighthearted.

The closest thing I can think of was the extended Jaba's Palace scene in the special edition of ROTJ. That scene was unnecessary and cringy. The scene in the TLJ was about 10x longer than that. Them adding in Bencio Del Toro's bizarre cartoony character was also unnecessary. He wasn't quite Jar Jar Binks annoying, but he was certainly of that same vein.

I get that the idea of a rich elite is important, but realistically in order to maintain that wealth you'd need an industry or property to do so. If you've got a governing power capable of blowing up planets running around rogue, that is very bad bad for business. The elite would have to be heavily involved in politics. That was actually the message from the prequels, with all the trade federation stuff (which was also poorly executed...but not as bad as the casino scene). Palpatine had to manipulate industry in order to gain political control.

You're presented with a very basic and superficial depiction of wealth in TLJ. You're supposed to accept that this class exists, but not think about how they fit into the bigger picture of a galaxy ruled by a heavy handed fascist regime...which TLJ doesn't actually depict as all that powerful, as they only have a few ships...that all end up getting destroyed in the film. Somehow they rule an entire galaxy though.

Maybe that's my problem with the movie as a whole, you're not supposed to think about anything. What separates a movie like the original Star Wars from the Jurassic Park franchise is that it creates excellent ground to think about things.
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