Former NHLer Jimmy Hayes passes away at age 31

[activeStick]

I don't think decriminalizing a drug necessarily means it will be offered through a government's safe supply program (could be wrong though). Cocaine not being as addictive as other substances has nothing to do with including it as part of safe supply and has nothing to do with my thoughts around safe supply.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I guess the question then is, so what?

Safer sources and less black market is the goal. Not less users. That’s pretty much uncontrollable.

Why shouldn't less users be the goal? Are you saying it's ok to have a general populace hooked on a highly addictive drug?

Like Cecil, I also personally know people who tried pot for the first time since it was legalized, and are now hooked. Call me a boomer or old or whatever, but I just cannot see legalizing hard drugs as a good thing for society.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Why shouldn't less users be the goal? Are you saying it's ok to have a general populace hooked on a highly addictive drug?

Like Cecil, I also personally know people who tried pot for the first time since it was legalized, and are now hooked. Call me a boomer or old or whatever, but I just cannot see legalizing hard drugs as a good thing for society.

To be clear, I have no opinion on the matter. We don’t really know what would happen if coke was made legal like pot.

There are various options, like decriminalization, but that probably doesn’t help the problem of laced fentanyl. That’s a supply issue.

I also disagree on the weed thing. Although I don’t doubt your experiences, everyone I know who wanted to try pot before it was legal did so. They already had access to safe, high quality weed with little to no social stigma, legalization moved the needle of availability and quality a bit but not enough to have any discernible effect. Not true for cocaine amongst people I know.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Why shouldn't less users be the goal? Are you saying it's ok to have a general populace hooked on a highly addictive drug?

Like Cecil, I also personally know people who tried pot for the first time since it was legalized, and are now hooked. Call me a boomer or old or whatever, but I just cannot see legalizing hard drugs as a good thing for society.

We aren’t stopping drug users with enforcement. It doesn’t work. That’s all I’m saying.

There’s a #### ton of other things that need to be done to reduce the amount of people who are heavily using drugs. And the risk of jail isn’t it.

[Itse]

Addiction is one of those things that probably touches most people personally one way or the other.

For me it was my best friend and my kids godfather who messed up his life really bad with his addiction (mostly cannabis as far as I know). Two kids ended up in the hospital because he effed up while high. One of those kids was mine. It's surely not hard to guess there's a lot of heavy personal stuff between those lines.

Other people have other stories, that affects how they see this topic, stories that are often extremely personal, attached to heavy emotions like shame, sorrow, possibly genuine trauma. I think that's a big reason why it's so hard to change these laws. I think a lot of people agree that the current system is not working, but the topic is just so personal to so many people that it's not easy to even discuss.

For me the experience just made it so obvious how the police are not just powerless to prevent something like that, but their involvement and the way they viewed the drug issue actively made the situation worse and stood in the way of things people would have actually needed.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by speede5

Alive but still blowing his life up. Does a safe supply help get people in to rehab and stop using? Or does it just buy us time to keep living the nightmare til they finally hit rock bottom and change.

It's important to note that the notion that an addict must hit "rock bottom" to change may be harmful to the addict, and even to their chances of recovery. This is an idea that has been popularized by Alcoholics Anonymous, which is more of a religious cult than a scientific organization.

First, the "rock bottom" notion deters early interventions, which can be beneficial. The best time to help an addict recover is "now", not after a vaguely-defined amount of suffering.

Second, it deters the addict themself from seeking recovery. In telling them their recovery is doomed to fail unless they've reach some vaguely-defined amount of suffering, you're discouraging them from taking actions.

Third, it may fundamentally misunderstand what addiction is. There is emerging evidence that addiction is often a response to trauma. In one experiment, two groups of rats were given equal access to drugs, but different environments. The rats in the "rat paradise" environment left the drugs alone, while the rats who lacked alternative stimulation became drug users. Whilst there are dangers in extrapolating from rats to humans, and you don't want to directly enable a drug user, this suggests that what drug users need is an alternative means to address their underlying trauma, rather than more trauma piled on top. That actually risks pushing them further into addiction, and possibly to an overdose.

If your views on addiction have been shaped by AA, I encourage you to seek out other, more scientific information. Looking into SMART Recovery might be a good place to start.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I literally said I think it is controllable. By making high quality cocaine readily available and by normalizing its use, I am confident more people I know would use it. I have had this discussion with friends. They’re curious but access and fear prevent them from trying it. Remove those barriers and they’re doing it for sure. Many won’t become addicts but some will. There will be a downside to making it safer and that will undoubtedly be more widespread use.

We don’t want to have less cocaine users and addicts? That’s news to me.

I concur that there's a catch-22.

Ultimately though?

I think reducing the black market would be a valid first step. Those barriers you mentioned may have some degree of effectiveness in deterrence for usage, but they empower organized crime.

Look at tobacco. To my un-verified, lazy knowledge, usage is down today in 2021 versus 1971 or 1981, even with the popular advent of vaping. There will always be users, but education will help curb any exponential rise in widespread use. Legality is only one factor.

I'm not an expert on the topic by any means, so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. I just come here for hockey stuff. I'm not even sure I'm fully educated on the topic of drugs. But if the Portuguese decriminalization model works, I don't see why going a step further wouldn't have value either, especially in the fentanyl-laced world of today.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't think that the government has to go all the way to legalizing them. I do think, however, that the government should decriminalize drugs, much like Portugal did years ago. They had an epidemic that the 'war on drugs' wasn't winning. The tide turned once they decriminalized (not legalized - they still went after the dealers/importers) and spent more money in outreach and assistance programs.


If you are going to legalize something, my vote is for prostitution. Lots of good can come out of doing that IMO, including to help keep women safe, away from 'pimps' who will take their money and often forcibly get them hooked on drugs to keep them pliable, and a tonne of violence. Good for the 'johns' as well since you get everyone tested regularly for STDs and have certain rules. Spend the savings from policing this directed at human trafficking (which will still happen, unfortunately) and child prostitution (which will still happen as well, unfortunately), not to mention the dollars the government will generate from taxes.



I would support both happening asap.

[GreenLantern2814]

Just speaking for myself, marijuana is addictive as ####.

It’s too good. I wish it weren’t. I wish I wasn’t addicted to it.

But I am.

I’ve spent a good portion of the last six years trying to find ways to regulate my usage, but it’s ####in folly. I’ve been high most of the time, and when I’m not, I’m thinking about when I can next partake.

Usually, a good day is when I wait until 4 or 5 in the afternoon to take a hit.

I pat myself on the back if I can make it an extra intermission or through half time without going outside.

I can’t sleep without it - I’m on Day 3 of my latest attempt to quit, and I haven’t fallen asleep before 4am any night.

Which isn’t the easiest on either me or my pregnant wife, but it’s better than having three EMTs in your bedroom at 430am on a mother####in Thursday.

And you know what the worst part is? I would LOVE to spark up a joint right now. My wife is going out this evening for a friend’s birthday and I can’t guarantee I won’t go buy a pack of pre rolls.

This #### isn’t benign. It’s too ####ing good.

Sorry to make this about me.

As you were.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Just speaking for myself, marijuana is addictive as ####.

It’s too good. I wish it weren’t. I wish I wasn’t addicted to it.

But I am.

I’ve spent a good portion of the last six years trying to find ways to regulate my usage, but it’s ####in folly. I’ve been high most of the time, and when I’m not, I’m thinking about when I can next partake.

Usually, a good day is when I wait until 4 or 5 in the afternoon to take a hit.

I pat myself on the back if I can make it an extra intermission or through half time without going outside.

I can’t sleep without it - I’m on Day 3 of my latest attempt to quit, and I haven’t fallen asleep before 4am any night.

Which isn’t the easiest on either me or my pregnant wife, but it’s better than having three EMTs in your bedroom at 430am on a mother####in Thursday.

And you know what the worst part is? I would LOVE to spark up a joint right now. My wife is going out this evening for a friend’s birthday and I can’t guarantee I won’t go buy a pack of pre rolls.

This #### isn’t benign. It’s too ####ing good.

Sorry to make this about me.

As you were.

What is the pain you’re trying to numb?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

What is the pain you’re trying to numb?

maybe there isn't. not our business.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

maybe there isn't. not our business.

You're totally right, it isn't our business.

It is however a reasonable question he can ask himself privately (or with a therapist). Really, we should all ask it. Doesn't need to be weed (or even a drug). If we have a pain in our lives we aren't managing, we'll find ways to cover it up. Maybe it's social media, shopping, eating garbage, fitness, dieting, sex, gambling... basically anything that gives us a bump that is overly difficult to put down is covering some discomfort. Finding that discomfort can be hugely gratifying. The chance that he (or any of us) doesn't have some pain to cover up is quite unlikely.

It was touched on in another post that I'll have to go back and check for reference (edit: SebC), but unchecked trauma is the elephant in the room here. People who suffer trauma (typically at an age when they're unable to process it) are more likely to react to these drugs by an order of magnitude.

There's an amazing book by Gabor Mate called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts that made a great point: people ask what we can do right now for these people, and the sad truth is for the vast majority that bell has already been rung. What we need to do is for the addicts that are children, or haven't even been conceived yet. We need to decrease stress on families in dangerous situations so the events that lead to drug addiction can decrease.

That would take many things to accomplish, money being one factor, and ideally you could generate that money from profits from drug legalization.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We're reaching a point in society where popular hard drugs like cocaine, mdma and LSD, need to be legalized and regulated just to keep fentanyl out of them, IMO. You're not going to stop the tweakers, at least you can stop the experimenters (who are usually teenagers) from this kind of worst case scenario.

edit: of course, having buyers of these require passing some sort of licensing test to knoe they're aware of the dangers makes all too much sense. Educate, but regulate.

I get the lesser of two evils stance, but you've got massive problems as a society if you're willing to accept teenagers are going to experiment with cocaine, mdma and lsd, but so long as there's no fentanyl in it, we can deal with it? I don't have the answers, but I can guarantee this leads to a whole new level of addiction the more you normalize consumption of harder drugs like this.

[FlamesAddiction]

Drug toxicity is the leading cause of death of people between the ages of 19 and 39 in BC. Since 2015, more than 7,700 people have died from it. In the first half of 2021, more than 1,000 people have died with June being the ninth consecutive month with more than 150 deaths. Clearly society already has a problem. Fentanyl is responsible for 87% of the cases.

I am sure the numbers in other provinces are different levels of staggering as well. It seems crazy to me that it isn't bigger news, but a big part of that is stigma and the disdain that some people have for drug users. A lot of the people dying are just normal people making some bad decisions.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I get the lesser of two evils stance, but you've got massive problems as a society if you're willing to accept teenagers are going to experiment with cocaine, mdma and lsd, but so long as there's no fentanyl in it, we can deal with it? I don't have the answers, but I can guarantee this leads to a whole new level of addiction the more you normalize consumption of harder drugs like this.

You and the rest of us tbh. There's no stopping people in this country from experimenting without somehow completely eradicating the supply in a literal war on drugs (yikes), and even then, it's entirely likely people just manufacture alternative methods of getting high that are just as or perhaps even more dangerous to their health, ie. huffing paint/jenkem/doing whippits et al. there's no shortage of ways for humans to get messed up.

I don't think anyone here can guarantee anything outside of our own situations, and for my own part I can say without a doubt that legal cocaine wouldn't have me using it on any regular basis. Would more conservative people discover drugs later in life and would that result in problems for them? I can see that being the case, and this is where Education (and possibly some physical/mental health based screening for licensed purchasing might be effective) and social programs that focus on honest communication about this stuff and establishing support systems for people needs to be a priority. I would like to think that with legalization there'd be fewer otherwise normal, curious, but generally responsible people, dying from horrible overdoses. Which to me is the current issue, but maybe it's not, maybe it really doesn't get any better than the current situation.

[Big Erned Nevergivn]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I get the lesser of two evils stance, but you've got massive problems as a society if you're willing to accept teenagers are going to experiment with cocaine, mdma and lsd, but so long as there's no fentanyl in it, we can deal with it? I don't have the answers, but I can guarantee this leads to a whole new level of addiction the more you normalize consumption of harder drugs like this.

Lets not act like people experimenting with mind altering substances, is some new problem, it has been that way since the beginning of the human existence. You state that this will lead to new levels of addiction, but the data says otherwise in places like Portugal where they have decriminalized most hard drugs. They have seen a decrease in addiction and huge decrease in deaths due to overdose. The people that are going to do the stuff, are going to do it regardless, so I don't see why collecting a tax dollar on it to fund rehabilitation programs and healthcare expenses related to addiction is a bad idea. Better that than nothing, no? Also regulating the quality so less people die or end up in hospital seems like a decent idea too.

Like you guys, I don't have the answer(s), but staying the course seems like the wrong answer.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

What is the pain you’re trying to numb?

I have been thinking about this all day.

My first response was to go “what, you don’t know about life?” (RIP Norm), but my life is pretty charmed, relative to the effort I put out. My wife is amazing, her pregnancy has so far been trouble free, and both our families have made it through Covid unharmed.

Billions of people aren’t that lucky.

I think I should be more than I am. I haven’t been able to make any progress professionally since I graduated university. As of next July, that’ll be now ten years ago.

I’m enraged by my own cowardice. It took me two and a half years to break up with my college girlfriend. I didn’t go with my family to put my childhood dog down because I “had to work” - work would’ve understood. I seem pathologically incapable of standing up for myself.

I can write, but I don’t. I put more effort into posting here than I do writing anything that could, you know, pull me out of the malaise.

I can play three different instruments, or at least I could. I quit them all. ####, I can sing. Alone. The only song I’ve ever sung in front of my wife where I wasn’t deliberately submarining my cause is “See My Vest”.

My best friend once said to me that he’d never seen anyone get by on talent the way I did - I would research and write all my essays the night before they were due, I’d only study for tests the night before/day of (usually just day of), and while I wouldn’t get an A, I’d get somewhere between a C and an A, and that was enough for me.

That’s a terrible lesson to learn, and I can’t shake the idea that I’ve squandered my gifts, and what’s worse, I didn’t care enough to try. Not really, anyway.

Huh. There it is. I’ve squandered my gifts, and weed makes that tolerable.

Thank you for asking.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I have been thinking about this all day.

My first response was to go “what, you don’t know about life?” (RIP Norm), but my life is pretty charmed, relative to the effort I put out. My wife is amazing, her pregnancy has so far been trouble free, and both our families have made it through Covid unharmed.

Billions of people aren’t that lucky.

I think I should be more than I am. I haven’t been able to make any progress professionally since I graduated university. As of next July, that’ll be now ten years ago.

I’m enraged by my own cowardice. It took me two and a half years to break up with my college girlfriend. I didn’t go with my family to put my childhood dog down because I “had to work” - work would’ve understood. I seem pathologically incapable of standing up for myself.

I can write, but I don’t. I put more effort into posting here than I do writing anything that could, you know, pull me out of the malaise.

I can play three different instruments, or at least I could. I quit them all. ####, I can sing. Alone. The only song I’ve ever sung in front of my wife where I wasn’t deliberately submarining my cause is “See My Vest”.

My best friend once said to me that he’d never seen anyone get by on talent the way I did - I would research and write all my essays the night before they were due, I’d only study for tests the night before/day of (usually just day of), and while I wouldn’t get an A, I’d get somewhere between a C and an A, and that was enough for me.

That’s a terrible lesson to learn, and I can’t shake the idea that I’ve squandered my gifts, and what’s worse, I didn’t care enough to try. Not really, anyway.

Huh. There it is. I’ve squandered my gifts, and weed makes that tolerable.

Thank you for asking.

I've had similar thoughts, quite literally. I certainly don't have any silver bullet nor do I think any such thing exists, but miring myself in hobbies I can enjoy with (preferably online) friends or by myself has been the most effective method of curbing my appetite for psychoactive compounds. (Gardening/Gaming would be my go to's personally). For whatever that's worth (essentially just trying to tire myself out with fun/engaging activities separate from the contingent of my friends that considers drugs an activity in and of themselves if/when I'm in an emotional rut). If you're ever struggling through the day while you're trying to quit don't be afraid to pop on here and see if anyone wants to hop on to your favorite game with you, the distraction is sometimes enough to make you sit there and think "Do I really even want to take a puff?". Obviously, results may vary, but if nothing else talking about it is always a good first step

[Mathgod]

Horrifying news. Wishing his family and friends all the best.

[Yamer]

I've been an advocate for cannabis as long as I can remember. I've also been physically addicted to it the same way GreenLantern is, and it was the hardest vice to kick. I was a monster when I wasn't high, and I was a waste when I was.

It always irks me when advocates claim that it isn't addictive, rather it can be "habit forming". What a crock (a habit is simply behavioural addiction). It's ok to say that it can be delightful and provide numerous medicinal potentials while admitting improper use can lead to addiction. That #### can be just as if not more addictive than cigarettes.

My sympathy to you, GL. That's a hard substance to quit. My only saving grace at the time I did was that it wasn't readily available (pre-legalization).