Dec 3 Practice Notes - Czarnik and Prout draw in. Goalie TBD

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ryan may be 'doing fine', but by the metrics listed above, Jankowski is doing a lot better.

Ryan has had 39% more ice-time, and 41 minutes of PP time to Jankowski's 4 minutes, and Ryan has had better line-mates overall. Yet Jankowski is producing more points.

So if Ryan is doing fine, then Jankowski is doing great and deserves a bump in the lineup.

So by your metric then Jankowski should be taking Bennett's spot. He has produced the same points in kess games and ice time with poorer linemates.

[dammage79]

If it's not Hamonic out tomorrow with yet another face mangling, then I suspect it'll be Rasmus Andersson sitting out and NOT Oliver Kylington. Andersson was a bit of a hotter mess than Kyington and that penalty likely earned him some popcorn.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by icecube

David Rittich is a better goalie than Mike Smith. I understand them slowly handing the reigns over to Rittich but I would not understand giving Mike Smith the starters job back based on one good game.

Personally, I don't think either goalie has "the starter's job" as of today. Mike Smith is still proving he can keep it, and David Rittich is proving he can take it.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So points are not important, but possession stats are? Glad you are not the coach.

I am not a Ryan hater. But for the last few games, as good as Ryan has played, Jankowski has been better. He has more offensive skill (which is what the 3rd line, i.e. Neal, needs) and more upside.

Ryan does a good job with face-offs and possession stats, as you say. He makes a great 4th line C.

Third line Center points don't matter. Not at the expense of Possession and Faceoffs. Sorry, but me and the Coach appear to agree on this one.

I don't get Ryan haters(I realize you said you're not one). He is exactly what he was advertised to be. That why Tre and Peters wanted him. For the above metrics.

I look at the bulk of the "top teams" and their 3C is an established center who excel at possession and win faceoffs. The idea is that Janko should be killing it on the fourth line if he's going to overtake that position. I think we all hope he can do that, but right now Ryan is a perfect fit for the role.

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that a few extra points are worth it for Neal to shake his funk. That line was excellent last night, and the points will come.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Except for Mr. Rittich who might not get to see his son play.

His parents were here last March to see their son play.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Third line Center points don't matter. Not at the expense of Possession and Faceoffs. Sorry, but me and the Coach appear to agree on this one.

I don't get Ryan haters(I realize you said you're not one). He is exactly what he was advertised to be. That why Tre and Peters wanted him. For the above metrics.

I look at the bulk of the "top teams" and their 3C is an established center who excel at possession and win faceoffs. The idea is that Janko should be killing it on the fourth line if he's going to overtake that position. I think we all hope he can do that, but right now Ryan is a perfect fit for the role.

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that a few extra points are worth it for Neal to shake his funk. That line was excellent last night, and the points will come.

Ryan's recent play has got him off my sh*t list.

He's starting to do those little things that he was struggling with in the first 15 odd games.

I think both are playing well on the lines they are on, leave them be for the time being.

Now to get Neal off the list..

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Dion

His parents were here last March to see their son play.

* On this trip

The context was that Peters was making lineup changes so the Dads on the trip would get to see their sons play. He had yet to make a decision on who plays net tomorrow so Mr. Rittich possibly wouldn't get to see his son play tomorrow night

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

So by your metric then Jankowski should be taking Bennett's spot. He has produced the same points in kess games and ice time with poorer linemates.

Interesting take, but no.

First of all, they aren't playing the same position.

But more importantly, and to the point, we have two bottom 6 Cs, Ryan and Jankowski. And we have two spots to fill, 3rd line C and 4th line C.

IMO, Jankowski's skill set is more suited to the 3rd line role, and Ryan's is more suited to the 4th line role.

Not sure what that has to do with Bennett (who has been playing very well on the 2nd line of late).

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Third line Center points don't matter. Not at the expense of Possession and Faceoffs. Sorry, but me and the Coach appear to agree on this one.

I don't get Ryan haters(I realize you said you're not one). He is exactly what he was advertised to be. That why Tre and Peters wanted him. For the above metrics.

I look at the bulk of the "top teams" and their 3C is an established center who excel at possession and win faceoffs. The idea is that Janko should be killing it on the fourth line if he's going to overtake that position. I think we all hope he can do that, but right now Ryan is a perfect fit for the role.

Sorry, you're not going to convince me that a few extra points are worth it for Neal to shake his funk. That line was excellent last night, and the points will come.

What?

Between the 3rd line and the 4th line, points matter a hell of a lot more on the 3rd line. We also have Neal on the 3rd line and he isn't being fed pucks for scoring opportunities. Ryan may have possession numbers, but he is doing nothing for Neal.

Yes, Ryan is as advertised. Great - I like him. But he is killing the potential offense that our 3rd line could have. Your argument that 3rd line Cs are possession guys - where does that come from, is it your opinion, or do you have something to support that?

In today's NHL, you need 3 scoring lines. Ryan has been good at what he does, but the 3rd line is not producing. Jankowski is better offensively, and a better fit with Neal.

Ryan can do his possession thing with Hathaway, who can't produce either.

[GranteedEV]

If we're talking about possession, Ryan is very weak at shot generation. Many plays die on his stick because he is simply undersized. On the other hand Jankowski is weak at shot suppression, his line gives up too much if you put them in an elevated role.

One of Bennett or Backlund should be our 3C as they have a more balanced skillset and toolset.

[Bingo]

Bottom line for me is whatever guy can find chemistry with Neal gets the job.

Neither of them do all that well on the cycle though, which is a shame. Ryan is too small and plays die on his stick offensively. He's excellent defensively though and keeps the team out of danger so you need him to get minutes.

Jankowski has size and all this reach, but he's so inconsistent.

But my mind is open ... one of these guys need to become a 35 point player with Neal and they can have the spot!

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What?

Between the 3rd line and the 4th line, points matter a hell of a lot more on the 3rd line. We also have Neal on the 3rd line and he isn't being fed pucks for scoring opportunities. Ryan may have possession numbers, but he is doing nothing for Neal.

Yes, Ryan is as advertised. Great - I like him. But he is killing the potential offense that our 3rd line could have. Your argument that 3rd line Cs are possession guys - where does that come from, is it your opinion, or do you have something to support that?

In today's NHL, you need 3 scoring lines. Ryan has been good at what he does, but the 3rd line is not producing. Jankowski is better offensively, and a better fit with Neal.

Ryan can do his possession thing with Hathaway, who can't produce either.

You're missing what I'm saying. Points don't matter at the expense of possession and faceoffs on the third line. By swapping the two players, the third line holds the puck less because they don't win the faceoffs and start defending. And Janko has worse Corsi in general. The fourth line is on for less time, so now you have take the puck off the flames sticks on both lines, by giving the third line less possession and Ryan the puck less on the fourth.

The NHL runs off of puck possession and scoring chances. You need to hold the puck to generate scoring chances. That's exactly why Ryan is the right center for Neal right now. Well, technically Backlund is, but that isn't working. So Ryan is the next option. Janko's possession numbers are in the 40s, that's not good.

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[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

You're missing what I'm saying. Points don't matter at the expense of possession and faceoffs on the third line. By swapping the two players, the third line holds the puck less because they don't win the faceoffs and start defending. And Janko has worse Corsi in general. The fourth line is on for less time, so now you have take the puck off the flames sticks on both lines, by giving the third line less possession and Ryan the puck less on the fourth.

The NHL runs off of puck possession and scoring chances. You need to hold the puck to generate scoring chances. That's exactly why Ryan is the right center for Neal right now. Well, technically Backlund is, but that isn't working. So Ryan is the next option. Janko's possession numbers are in the 40s, that's not good.

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I'm not missing what you're saying, I am disagreeing with it. I also asked if you have any support for that claim, which you keep stating like it is a truism, or if it is just your opinion.

IMO, good teams have 3 scoring lines. And Ryan isn't getting it done on the 3rd line in that regard.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

The metrics listed above were:

Drive Possession first. Ryan has been near or at the top of the team.
Win faceoffs second. Ryan is far superior here too.
Chip in some goals third. The words Chip and Some are critical here. Chip and Some are small and less significant. But he has also accomplished this as well.

Janko is fine, but if he wants the 3C spot, then he needs to take it. That he hasn't done. I hope he does, but right now he is exactly where he needs to be.

Jankowski is far superior on faceoffs, he wins a higher percentage of his draws than Ryan.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Jankowski is far superior on faceoffs, he wins a higher percentage of his draws than Ryan.

Hardly.
Janko is 54% this year to Ryan's 52. Except Ryan has been placed in positions where faceoff wins are higher levels of competition.

Prior to this year their percentages haven't been close. But regardless, Ryan has and is known for strong faceoff numbers. It was stated at nauseam this summer.

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[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'm not missing what you're saying, I am disagreeing with it. I also asked if you have any support for that claim, which you keep stating like it is a truism, or if it is just your opinion.

IMO, good teams have 3 scoring lines. And Ryan isn't getting it done on the 3rd line in that regard.

Other than the 31 head NHL coaches, it's all opinion isn't it? I'm going off the centers of team I have watched as true cup contenders. I guess, my opinion, or I'm just too lazy to go find other supporting opinions while on my phone.

What I'm saying is that the top skill centers are almost naturally positive possession players because they generate offense. Ryan is a positive possession player without the offensive numbers to support...yet.

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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

You're missing what I'm saying. Points don't matter at the expense of possession and faceoffs on the third line. By swapping the two players, the third line holds the puck less because they don't win the faceoffs and start defending. And Janko has worse Corsi in general.

Corsi is a team stat. Jankowski is not perfect, I have already said his shot suppression ability is lacking as a center. However, let's not pretend that the stat you're quoting exists in a vacuum.

Jankowski is attached to the hip to our worst possession players - Hathaway (useless on the offensive side of the blue line), Dube (loses anything resembling a puck battle), Andersson (struggles with puck recovery and entry denial), and now our absolute worst possession player Ryan Lomberg.

If you compare lines where the linemates have been similar, the most obvious one being:

Bennett - Jankowski - Neal
53.85% CF
67.74% SCF

vs

Bennett - Ryan - Neal
54.17% CF
48.48% SCF


That gap is virtually non-existant.

The NHL runs off of puck possession and scoring chances. You need to hold the puck to generate scoring chances. That's exactly why Ryan is the right center for Neal right now.

Ryan is terrible at holding onto the puck to generate scoring chances, though. The reason he has good possession numbers is because he's good at exiting his defensive zone with the puck. He's unable to do anything of value in the offensive zone, which has manifested in that line generating almost nothing except when Bennett or Frolik is the LW, and while Frolik - Ryan - Neal is a good option on the third line, Czarnik - Jankowski - Neal or Mangiapane - Jankowski - Neal both have similar if not higher potential.

Line construction is about players complementing each other. Ryan and Czarnik do not. Ryan and Neal have not, either. Czarnik and Neal have. Frolik and Neal have. I'd argue Jankowski and Neal do have some inherent compatibility, although the results weren't there earlier in the season when Neal was our worst player.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Hardly.
Janko is 54% this year to Ryan's 52. Except Ryan has been placed in positions where faceoff wins are higher levels of competition.

Prior to this year their percentages haven't been close. But regardless, Ryan has and is known for strong faceoff numbers. It was stated at nauseam this summer.

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But you said Ryan was far superior, yet the objective analysis says that Janko is better.

Now you present some version of higher levels of competition as a subjective test to show Ryan is better.

Bottom line is Janko is better on the dot than Ryan.

[dammage79]

Janko should be getting a good chance at being with Mangipane and Neal. There's undeniable chemistry between the two young players.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

But you said Ryan was far superior, yet the objective analysis says that Janko is better.

Now you present some version of higher levels of competition as a subjective test to show Ryan is better.

Bottom line is Janko is better on the dot than Ryan.

Sorry but thats not the bottom line. That's the literal side of it. Deployment matters, Janko is not being placed against the same situations. But you're right I was speaking off of last year's numbers. This year their stats are the same, but their deployment is definitely not.

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