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Old 03-04-2021, 11:54 AM   #41
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But would you put either near the top of the league? There's really no results to indicate that from my perspective.
Too early to tell under this management. But there are signs it's much improved.
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:59 AM   #42
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Too early to tell under this management. But there are signs it's much improved.
Is it too early? I dunno. 7 years is a long time and the head of scouting has been here a lot longer than that. I don't deny that it's improved, but that's relative to the Flames of old, and not the rest of the league. Draft picks in a 7 year window shouldn't have that much lag relative to the rest of the league, that's enough time for them to start really bearing fruit.

I just don't see how one could place us in the upper echelon.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:01 PM   #43
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1. GM - Brad Treliving

He has done some good (getting Markstrom), but the need for a top 6 RW was blatantly obvious and he failed to address that, probably because there was too much dead weight (his fault completely) and he had to pick between a goalie or a RW.

2. Core’s Supporting Cast

This one is hit and miss. Monahan (yup, demoted from the core), Mangi, Dube, Backlund, and even Lucic have been decent supporting players. I know Backlund has struggled at points, but I think he is still a positive overall. The offseason signings have been pretty 'meh' and I suspect there are better options on the taxi squad. The bigger problem is how much some of those guys make.

3. Coaching - HC, AC, goalie coach, etc

I really have no idea if coaching is the problem. Some key players just don't seem to care, while others do. Why is it some players can be motivated under Ward and others can't? I think there is a lack of character on this roster. Maybe a better coach could get more out of them, but part of that is on the player too. I also see obvious lack of execution that has nothing to do with coaching.

While I don't think Ward is THE problem, I don't think he is the answer either, unless there are big roster changes. It seems like this team needs a lot of handholding.

4. Core

Depends who we are defining as the "core". I define them as Lindholm, Andersson, Markstrom, Gaudreau, and Tkachuk. If the "core" is still Monahan and Gaudreau, then push this up a couple of notches. Tkachuk needs to be better, but bozos shouldn't be calling him out for causing a ruckus. I think that deflated him.

Having said that, the core lacks a true star player. That is a hard problem to fix, but a problem nonetheless. Giordano's decline didn't help either.

5. Scouting/Prospect Development

Seems OK to me. Some hits, some misses. Pretty normal I think.

6. Ownership

No, ownership bankrolls the team and hires people to manage things. I don't think they interfere much, if at all. IF the Flames miss the playoffs, that is when they need to step in. They are the ones taking all the risk and are well aware of what can happen if the fanbase becomes disinterested. They also have no obligation to own a team in Calgary, so be careful not to bite the hand that feeds.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:05 PM   #44
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I don't put much stock into a team 'not getting along'. When you lose, people get frustrated and angry, and it can rub people the wrong way. If they were still a tight-knit bunch laughing and joking and having fun through this season so far, that's when I would start questioning the room. Losing sucks. It isn't fun. Players get paid to perform and help put up wins. There are few players on this team that are performing, especially with any consistency to speak of. I sure hope that the room is angry right now.


I really do believe that the biggest hurdle right now is the coaching. I think coaching is what sets the culture IMO. If there are bad apples, the coach has to deal with it effectively, even if it means going to the GM and telling him that player X has to go as it is a disruption to the team.


A well-coached team is a well functioning team, IMO. When it is not, everything else just seems to fall apart. I just don't think this team has had a proper coach for years now, so it is years of a team unravelling that is coming to a head.



There is nothing that the Flames do with any consistency any longer, at all, other than just 'be inconsistent'. I can't name one facet of their game as a team that I can point to and say: "They are good at this." Take goaltending out of the equation, and there are no positives to look at. Replace the goaltending on this team with league average, and this team is suddenly a bottom 5 team. Sounds awful... but they sit in 21st overall (11th worst team), and there are teams under them with games in hand and better P%.


Something needs to be changed. Whether it is just righting the existing ship somehow, a couple of trades, a coaching change, or even a GM change - something needs to change as the only thing that I see them doing well is just continuing playing inconsistently.



I don't think it is a matter of heart, or effort (though I imagine those are both waning). I think the players are lost. This chance to crawl back into relevance is evaporating rather quickly too. Time really is running out to figure out why and how they got themselves into this mess.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:07 PM   #45
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I'm finding it hard to rank.

Core is an issue and the possibilities of cliques within it is an issue, which overlaps with leadership. On the latter, I think when things were going better, guys who lead by example like Gio are fine. These days maybe they need someone more assertive to take charge. This doesn't require a change of letter - someone just needs to do it. Gio also may have taken a step back in his role as he feels his own game slip and tries to recover it. But at the end of the day, the core is what it is - not at the top of the division in raw talent and closer to the bottom. That takes years to address.

Coaching is an issue, which I think some people fall hard on in the hopes that changing a coach fixes the core and everything is rosy. I think a coaching change would be an improvement but not an overwhelming one. It's the easiest thing to address though - it's one guy.

Scouting - I think amateur has been fine, pro has been a mix: Lindholm was indeed "ready to pop" as was Hamilton, Tanev was a good signing, Markstrom was a no brainer. But Neal, Hamonic, Brouwer, Lazar were failures in pro scouting.

Ownership: I think they've been more hands off than some people. I'm betting, while the bottom line of success matters, Treliving has been given the lifespan of his current contract to succeed or not. IIRC there was some issue at the time of his last renewal where it was surmised he didn't have 100% confidence. Here's the issue: There are no hockey people in the organization above Treliving. Bean is an oil and gas accountant. The owners are interested amateurs. Who knows how they go about hiring a replacement?

Development is so tricky. People focus on Bennett and maybe Jankowski. But what about Ferland, Mangiapane, Andersson - I'd say those are successes. And Valimaki and Dube look promising.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:16 PM   #46
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1) coaching and leadership - it's both

2) team structure

3) GM (because #1 and #2 both fall to the GM)

I don't see anything wrong with ownership or scouting
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:30 PM   #47
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Is it too early? I dunno. 7 years is a long time and the head of scouting has been here a lot longer than that. I don't deny that it's improved, but that's relative to the Flames of old, and not the rest of the league. Draft picks in a 7 year window shouldn't have that much lag relative to the rest of the league, that's enough time for them to start really bearing fruit.

I just don't see how one could place us in the upper echelon.
For this management team I consider 2015 their first draft. It's well known that Burke had a lot of say in the 2014. Anything before that including first round busts is irrelevant to me, if we are evaluating this current regime. Todd Button has been around but clearly his picks have been influenced by who his GM is.

So we have six drafts that we can evaluate.

From 2015 they got 2 good NHLers playing (Andersson and Eat Bread), despite not having a first. Plus Kylington.

From 2016 they got 3 NHLers (Tkachuk, Dube and Fox). Tkachuk was a no brainer but Dube and Fox were great picks that would re-draft in the first round.

From 2017 they've got 1 NHLer (Valimaki). Rest of the draft doesn't look good except perhaps Ruzicka

2018 - too soon to evaluate given picks were 4th or later. Strong potential shown by Pettersen, and Zav for thwere they were draft

2019/2020 simply too soon.

So the assessment of the first 3 drafts, it looks good. To understand where one would place them in the NHl you would have to look at average returns for those same drafts relative to number of picks and position. That's a lot of work that I don't have the time to do.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:31 PM   #48
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For this management team I consider 2015 their first draft. It's well known that Burke had a lot of say in the 2014. Anything before that including first round busts is irrelevant to me, if we are evaluating this current regime. Todd Button has been around but clearly his picks have been influenced by who his GM is.

So we have six drafts that we can evaluate.

From 2015 they got 2 good NHLers playing (Andersson and Eat Bread), despite not having a first. Plus Kylington.

From 2016 they got 3 NHLers (Tkachuk, Dube and Fox). Tkachuk was a no brainer but Dube and Fox were great picks that would re-draft in the first round.

From 2017 they've got 1 NHLer (Valimaki). Rest of the draft doesn't look good except perhaps Ruzicka

2018 - too soon to evaluate given picks were 4th or later. Strong potential shown by Pettersen, and Zav for thwere they were draft

2019/2020 simply too soon.

So the assessment of the first 3 drafts, it looks good. To understand where one would place them in the NHl you would have to look at average returns for those same drafts relative to number of picks and position. That's a lot of work that I don't have the time to do.
yeah screw that haha
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:45 PM   #49
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I think there's an expiry date on the cores of most teams no matter how good. Once they spend enough years together things become too familiar and comfortable. This core has largely been together for over half a decade and it's stale. It doesn't help that they haven't found a head coach that can identify a system that suits the roster. I think if you added a better head coach they would improve in performance but I think the overall ceiling is lower now than it was a few years ago. It's simply time to shake up the core even if it means taking a step back to take two steps forward. This is what the Wild have done and it's working so far.
Agreed and also would say they should've added to the core years ago. after the Colorado series. How do you finish 1st in the west, get bounced in 5 and make no changes?

I think part of the reason for that is location, which I would suggest is the 7th factor. I do think being GM of about 4-5 Canadian teams and a couple American teams like Buffalo and Columbus is a handicap. Not an excuse, but limiting. Some players have openly refused to waive like Kadri and other rumored deals seem to have just fell through without explanation about why. Deals that would've given the group some talent and taken the burden off key guys like Gaudreau and Monahan as their production cools off in their late 20s.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:53 PM   #50
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I think that the problem is that a bunch of these guys don't like each other. There are a couple little "cliques" in that room, and they're not willing to play for each other, never mind enjoying themselves.
Disagree with this given the comments from players themselves on how close this team is during the bubble, and especially when those comments were unprompted and offered up by the players themselves. I'd ignore similar comments from Treliving as I don't think he would truly know.

I think the top issue with this team is the core. They've shown it over 5 years and 3 different coaches. They've been unable to execute different systems over those 5 years consistently and 'up their game' so to speak when theyre faced with adversity. For me, the core is Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Backlund, Giordano and Andersson. I wouldn't move all of them out, but I'd definitely start any changes from there.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:58 PM   #51
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Disagree with this given the comments from players themselves on how close this team is during the bubble, and especially when those comments were unprompted and offered up by the players themselves. I'd ignore similar comments from Treliving as I don't think he would truly know.

I think the top issue with this team is the core. They've shown it over 5 years and 3 different coaches. They've been unable to execute different systems over those 5 years consistently and 'up their game' so to speak when theyre faced with adversity. For me, the core is Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Backlund, Giordano and Andersson. I wouldn't move all of them out, but I'd definitely start any changes from there.
Taking your analysis a step further:

Out of those players, who would you classify as players that "hate to lose."

I only count 2, although you could potentially convince me about Andersson and Lindholm.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:11 PM   #52
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After a few days to contemplate things, maybe it is just that difficult for this particular group to bond as a team with the covid restrictions, especially on road trips. Every team has the same restrictions but I am wondering if there are a couple rifts between players that could normally be solved by some team bonding that can't be done this season.

Might give some insight as to why the replacement level signings have contributed SFA to scoring this year as well.
Yeah, I don't think they've done a lot of bonding as a group in a way that has really integrated the new members. They just appear to be on different pages and don't have the body language that suggests that they're going to war for each other.

Bonding doesn't necessarily happen in the airport/hotel and eating together. Sometimes you need an excursion or activity away from hockey to form those connections throughout the group.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:15 PM   #53
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Yeah, I don't think they've done a lot of bonding as a group in a way that has really integrated the new members. They just appear to be on different pages and don't have the body language that suggests that they're going to war for each other.

Bonding doesn't necessarily happen in the airport/hotel and eating together. Sometimes you need an excursion or activity away from hockey to form those connections throughout the group.
Or...you express it on the ice by how hard and smart you play for your teammates.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:15 PM   #54
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Taking your analysis a step further:

Out of those players, who would you classify as players that "hate to lose."

I only count 2, although you could potentially convince me about Andersson and Lindholm.
I think they all hate to lose. The question is how many are willing to do things necessary to win. And how many get in their own way sometimes. And how many do we assume have less emotional stake because they don't flip out.

Take Monahan, who's having a very subpar year goal-wise (though kind of on track for his usual PPG). I think he's worked pretty hard at his overall game because he's been told he needs to do that for team success. And he's always been willing to stand in the slot. So I respect that, even though people say he lacks emotion because he doesn't show it on his face. I respect it more than starting scrums after every whistle or freaking out over a puck flip. Tkachuk wants to win badly, but sometimes it needs to translate to between whistles, not after. And he does those things too, he goes to hard areas consistently, but people focus on the other stuff and say "look how much he cares".
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:18 PM   #55
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IMO it all stems from a flawed core. They look great when the stars align but they're too easy to knock outside their comfort zone, and the rest of our problems show up as a result.

The supporting cast seems suspect, but those guys are making <$2M for a reason. Dominik Simon and Josh Leivo shouldn't need to be impactful, they should just have to slot in beside the real difference-makers and keep their heads above water.

Coaching becomes an impossible job - when your best players are liabilities there's no system that works.


Building the roster becomes impossible too - if your top guys can't produce without the perfect linemate, at what point are they the problem?




That's not to say the supporting cast, coaching, or GMing have been perfect - far from it. Those things are all holding us back from reaching our potential, but the core problem is our potential just isn't that high.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:33 PM   #56
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IMO it all stems from a flawed core. They look great when the stars align but they're too easy to knock outside their comfort zone, and the rest of our problems show up as a result.

The supporting cast seems suspect, but those guys are making <$2M for a reason. Dominik Simon and Josh Leivo shouldn't need to be impactful, they should just have to slot in beside the real difference-makers and keep their heads above water.

Coaching becomes an impossible job - when your best players are liabilities there's no system that works.


Building the roster becomes impossible too - if your top guys can't produce without the perfect linemate, at what point are they the problem?




That's not to say the supporting cast, coaching, or GMing have been perfect - far from it. Those things are all holding us back from reaching our potential, but the core problem is our potential just isn't that high.
I agree with this. They looked fine against Ottawa because Ottawa let them skate around. Plus Murray wasn't good. POs are tighter and the top line has trouble against tight checking. The top line is just not talented enough to say "OK, you are checking me tighter - I'm just going around or through you". Not enough raw speed, not enough power, not enough quickness to pass.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:48 PM   #57
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We may not have any elite players but we do have really good players. The problem is coaching or GM need to be aligned on the system and players.

This roster "should" be a playoff roster however it seems most coaches (Ward and others) have failed to identify individual skillset. You cannot blanket a team with one vision, one strategy, one system. If Ward wants a pucks deep, hard working, ground and pound hockey, Treliving needs to supply him with a bunch of Lucic's and bigger guys. Instead Ward expects Marshmallow Mony, lil skittles Johnny, and others to dump pucks deep and retrieve. Two reasons this doesn't work, guys aren't gritty enough, guys aren't fast enough.

The reason Hartley had success with most of this core is because his system was based off transition, which works for "most" type players.

Even when we have the puck in our zone and one of the D is waiting to throw an outlet, we don't even have enough players to wind up and skate past the other team or even back them up out of respect to getting burned.

Add to some of what other posters said, a divide in the room, etc etc. It's compounded to negativity and nobody is having fun.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:50 PM   #58
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I'll go with 28 because just about every part of this franchise is an issue right now. I don't think you can honestly look at this franchise and say that any of those options are this team's strength. Right now I think the best thing the Flames have going for them is the fans because after years of disappointment, we still follow and support the team.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:54 PM   #59
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Coaching:
There are a lot of things wrong with the on ice product.

The end result is slow, boring hockey which the players seemingly don’t have confidence in and after long enough, seem to have settled at the point where they don’t like to play it. Predictable, passive, puts little pressure on the opposition, fails to create the outnumbered situations that you need to exploit.

Players without the puck are not finding open ice.

I wrote another post about how they are using the drop pass in a manner that renders it useless ( it’s supposed to get the D to bite and cheat towards where they think the puck carrier may go and thereby create room, but not the way they use it.) It is telegraphed and executed with too much space and at low speed.

I will say as well that the blender usage is idiotic. It’s all been tried at this point and people need to develop chemistry.

It’s like that expression that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Ward is painting a picture, and instead of a paintbrush, he is using a blender

I read an article where all these wingers talk about playing with Crosby. He would go over plays with them, tell them where he wants them to be, work with them after practice on 2 on 1s and tell them where he wants a pass. He will look at the iPad on the bench and ask guys if they were thinking forehand or backhand

He loved every little detail that gives them a fraction of a second advantage

The Flames show up and have no idea who the heck they are even going to be playing with, much less what their tendencies are going to be.

They are not even trying to do the things that give you those little advantages

I don’t think Ward can blend his way to excellence and that seems to be his only idea


GM: In his own words, everything starts at the top. With him. He hired the coach, accepts and tolerates what is going on. There is not a culture of accountability. He established that very early in his career when he fired Hartley, and it has simmered and grown.


Leadership: Definitely leadership issues.

When Darryl was here, he was the boss. There was no question about it. He had Iggy as a leader, Iggy supported him, but he would still hold Iggy accountable at times

Hartley was demanding but he had high standards, had a culture of accountability and set the tone

I could tell you how each of those teams played, with focus on the positive attributes and the things that worked consistently.

As far as players, I’m sure Gio is a great guy and all

Remember that short period where Jagr showed up? This is a guy with credibility. He told Johnny he could be among the scoring leaders. Even Bennett had his better games under Gully with Jagr. Obviously he commanded respect, although his time was short lived

It seems Ward wants the players all to own things and be empowered. There does not seem to be a leader on the Flames with enough of the right kind of credibility that the players can unite behind, and if there is any rift in the locker room, there has to be something behind which they unify

(Edit: a key part of this leadership strategy involves setting a vision, then when people take the ownership of their piece, making them believe it’s their decision / responsibility, etc. It’s really an important part of the motivation and I don’t see it here. Simple supporting evidence is that they can’t even settle on lines. )

People have talked about Tkachuk being a future captain, and how he drags the team in to the fight. I see that as his potential, he could be a captain one day, but he has to walk the walk, day in day out, produce and earn it. He has been invisible too many nights. That 5 points in 15 playoff games doesn’t cut it either. I admittedly don’t see what happens in the room but don’t get the sense that he has earned the respect that people are going to need for him before he can be that guy


The rest of the things I see as lesser issues.

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Old 03-04-2021, 01:58 PM   #60
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As much as I've railed against coaching, I feel equally as strong that the core is highly problematic. A bunch of David Moss and Daymond Langkow types that are sometimes effective, but have no drive, grit, second gear, which is what serves in the playoffs and when times are tough.
The awww shucks, we'll get 'em next time approach is driving a wedge with those that do have that drive like Tkachuk with the "we can't have a riot after every game".
I would love a riot after every game way more than the passive thing they have going on at the moment.
I'm not saying you drive out every Sean Monahan, Gio and others we have, but don't let them be the focus.
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