What’s Causing the Most Problem?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Dan403

That's a good thing. Tre is a great negotiator.

It's bad. We don't have enough good players.

[kermitology]

A lot of this boils down to the team just not being right. There aren't enough guys who work hard. So the GM hasn't put together the right combination of players, the coach can't get them to work hard, the players aren't individually doing the right things, and ownership is happy to just try to make the playoffs.

It's rotten everywhere.

[JohnnyB]

Day to day, it's the core and the coaching.
Year to year, it's the GM.
Decade to decade, it's the ownership.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Probably important to delineate between amateur and pro scouting. I would certainly rank them differently

But would you put either near the top of the league? There's really no results to indicate that from my perspective.

[Harry Lime]

Amateur scouting. Calgary has been great at identifying and developing talent outside of the first round. This might be the aspect of Tre's tenure that is his saving grace.

Still incoming is Ruzicka, Petterson, Phillips, Mackie, Wolf, Kinvall, and I'm probably forgetting a few. All solid and looking good. That doesn't include this last draft.

My problem is that there is a wheel of randomness attached to making the big club. Kylington is told to concentrate on defense (understandable) but also is not allowed to skate, as a systemic rule, which is his one elite level talent. He is being neutered. Gawdin is great at the cycle, but is put on a line with two players that can't hold onto the puck. Bennett is a bump and run player, but only plays with like players (Lucic and Dube) as a last resort. It goes on. Players not being allocated to take advantage of their strengths, because the system, bias of management, myopic vision of what brand of hockey they want, is more important.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Amateur scouting. Calgary has been great at identifying and developing talent outside of the first round. This might be the aspect of Tre's tenure that is his saving grace.

Still incoming is Ruzicka, Petterson, Phillips, Mackie, Wolf, Kinvall, and I'm probably forgetting a few. All solid and looking good. That doesn't include this last draft.

My problem is that there is a wheel of randomness attached to making the big club. Kylington is told to concentrate on defense (understandable) but also is not allowed to skate, as a systemic rule, which is his one elite level talent. He is being neutered. Gawdin is great at the cycle, but is put on a line with two players that can't hold onto the puck. Bennett is a bump and run player, but only plays with like players (Lucic and Dube) as a last resort. It goes on. Players not being allocated to take advantage of their strengths, because the system, bias of management, myopic vision of what brand of hockey they want, is more important.

Yeah but every team can just list a group of prospects coming. It doesn't mean they'll hit. Dube and Mangiapane look to be solid NHLers and as a 6th Mangiapane is clearly a home run. Andersson was a great pick. Valimaki could be really good. Other than that it's pretty dire. And that's not even really getting into how many 1st rounders have totally fizzled.

[Vinny01]

I think it all comes down to the core.

Gaudreau- the thought was he could be one of the true elite talents in the league. A regular Art Ross candidate and considered one of the top 5 offensive threats in the league
- what he appears to be now. A top end forward who could be a point per game threat but he is not a franchise player. I remember getting a little too excited after the World Cup and thought he could be one of the best players of this generation.

Monahan- the thought was he could become a legit number 1 C. The expectations were never saying he would be an elite two-way franchise center but he would be a solid pivot who should score 30 every year and be a threat for 40.
- what has happened after he hit 82pts for the first time was missing 50pts for the first time since his rookie season. He has 1 even strength goal and 3 goals total in 25 games this year. Huge massive drop off

Tkachuk- he still had a chance to hit his ceiling but after a 34 goal 76pt season from the second line he hasn’t taken a step forward and if anything has taken a half step or even a full step back. Another 40 goal hopeful but not there yet.

Ultimately when Lindholm was added to this core and took a huge leap into making this forward group a big 4. In the 18/19 season it looked like we were watching this core reach their potential but once the bye week in 2019 hit they have never looked the same.

Look at the “big 4 forwards” in our division.

Calgary- Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm
Toronto- Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander
Edmonton- McDavid, Draisaitl, Nuge, Yamamoto
Winnipeg- Schiefele, Connor, Dubois, Wheeler
Vancouver- Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat, Miller
Montreal- Suzuki, Anderson, Gallagher, Toffoli
Ottawa- Tkachuk, Batherson, Stutzle, Norris

Flames are at best ranked 5th there. In 18/19 they looked a lot better and when those top players are playing like top players the rest of the depth makes the Flames one of the best teams in the league. When our top players can’t carry the depth the team looks incredibly mediocre.

[Always Earned Never Given]

Originally Posted by Backstop

While impossible to prove short of a player spilling the beans to media, I agree that at least to my eye during games there does appear to be a divide in the players -I notice it most during goal celebrations.

Swedes celebrate together
Americans celebrate together
Canadians celebrate together
Czechs celebrate together

and Valimaki celebrates alone!

[Vinny01]

I do think one of the biggest reasons our core has failed is because of coaching which is a 1a problem for me. Ultimately the core not living up to the hype they created in the 18/19 is still the biggest problem but I am certain part of that problem is due to coaching.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The team the Flames have is on the left. The team Ward thinks he has is on the right.



End of story.

[IliketoPuck]

We are less than the sum of our parts.

That falls into two buckets.

1. Coaching.

2. Players.

Coaching seems to be unable to implement a system that plays to the strengths of our players.

The Players aren't giving honest efforts on a consistent basis.

Change the coach, change some of the players.

I'd go after Gerard Gallant, and let him come in and see if he can get the current group going, and let him evaluate the players that are going to be part of the solution.

Move on from the others, similar to how Philadelphia moved on from Carter and Richards.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Amateur scouting. Calgary has been great at identifying and developing talent outside of the first round. This might be the aspect of Tre's tenure that is his saving grace.

Still incoming is Ruzicka, Petterson, Phillips, Mackie, Wolf, Kinvall, and I'm probably forgetting a few. All solid and looking good. That doesn't include this last draft.

My problem is that there is a wheel of randomness attached to making the big club. Kylington is told to concentrate on defense (understandable) but also is not allowed to skate, as a systemic rule, which is his one elite level talent. He is being neutered. Gawdin is great at the cycle, but is put on a line with two players that can't hold onto the puck. Bennett is a bump and run player, but only plays with like players (Lucic and Dube) as a last resort. It goes on. Players not being allocated to take advantage of their strengths, because the system, bias of management, myopic vision of what brand of hockey they want, is more important.

And that talent is not being developed. Instead we're trying to hit home runs with Leivo, Simon and Nordstrom.

[Backstop]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

In the 18/19 season it looked like we were watching this core reach their potential but once the bye week in 2019 hit they have never looked the same.

Though incredibly intangible I can't help but believe something pivotal in the teams unity occurred at this point in time and it has been downhill since.

[Manhattanboy]

I think the biggest problem is the future.

Unless something big happens via the draft or otherwise this team looks to be a bottom feeder for the next few years. Markstrom will get us a few wins but I don’t see playoffs for a long time.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Backstop

Though incredibly intangible I can't help but believe something pivotal in the teams unity occurred at this point in time and it has been downhill since.

If true. Isn't it the GM's job to root it out, fix it or ship whoever caused it out of town?

[HighLifeMan]

It's the coaching.. which is the direct responsibility of the GM.

Under Geoff Ward this team is scoring 1.76 goals per game at even strength and it's getting worse the longer he sticks around.. for some context Bill Peters had the same core scoring 2.18 goals per game at even strength. Hell even Hartley managed to scrounge up more even strength production (1.87) with considerably less to work with.

Ward and Gulutzen had this team playing similar brands of hockey and producing at nearly identical levels. Treliving needs to be held accountable for selecting these coaches that do not align with the roster and promote the talent and skillsets of the players he has provided them.

Gaudreau and Monahan's scoring rates at even strength in specific have fallen off in a drastic manner under Ward dropping 0.74, and 0.70 respectively per 60 minutes. The "shift" this organization attempted to make in order for our top players to become "harder to play against" has completely stifled the creativity and production of the heart of the offense, and as a result it has had a trickle down effect on the bottom half of the roster.

[Backstop]

Originally Posted by chedder

If true. Isn't it the GM's job to root it out, fix it or ship whoever caused it out of town?

Responsibility for player divides or team unity issues should initially fall to leaders in the room and the coach to realign, should that prove impossible then yes, shift the onus to upper management for personnel changes.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I think the biggest problem is the future.

Unless something big happens via the draft or otherwise this team looks to be a bottom feeder for the next few years. Markstrom will get us a few wins but I don’t see playoffs for a long time.

It's ok to be a bottom feeder at the expense of developing players. But I'm not sure that would happen either.

[Monahammer]

I propose that team leadership needs to be a separate category from Core and non-core players. This includes players like Giordano and Backlund. IMO NE's list is right, with the exception of team leadership belonging in the gap between coaching and the Gm.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I propose that team leadership needs to be a separate category from Core and non-core players. This includes players like Giordano and Backlund. IMO NE's list is right, with the exception of team leadership belonging in the gap between coaching and the Gm.

Very good point. I added it, as I think it’s an important category to consider as an issue clouding this team from reaching its potential we SHOULD’VE seen by now.