Treliving

[Spinach]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A great activity for a fan is to scan the lineups of the top 5 or 6 teams in the league and you'll quickly realize that outside of Johnny, Tkachuk and Lindholm, the Flames just don't have enough game breaking skill to make up for the complete AHL level bottom 6: Lucic, Janko, Reider, Rinaldo, Frolik, simply do not cut it. Monahan is also simply not what a contending team needs in a top line centre at this point either. His "improved three-zone play" this year is now up to average at best from terrible, and in achieving this, he's lost his one true asset - finishing plays in tight.

There are just way too many issues that don't even touch on the compete level and hate to lose comments the coaching staff is throwing around at will these days. Unless something significant happens via a trade, I don't see this season turning around, but you can hope that a bad year will net the team a hail mary draft pick that injects a lottery pick or significant deadline move to turn things around for next season. One thing is for sure, this better not fall on the scalp of another coaching staff.

I'd say it had better not only fall on the head of yet another head coach. For all the reasons you mentioned, firing Peters without addressing any of the other problems would be asinine, and that's without even considering whether ownership would allow it.

We can go round and round about whether Monahan is an elite #1 C. The fact is, he's not doing anything offensively right now and didn't deliver in crunch time last season. And the Flames don't have another high-flight centre to pick up the slack when Monahan slumps like most players do.

Tkachuk, as great as he is, isn't fast. Monahan's not fast. Lucic is downright slow. No other forward outside of bit pieces Reider and Czarnik have gamebreaking speed; Gaudreau is the closest they have, and obviously he's not been highly productive on a consistent basis since January. The lack of high end speed up front is made more glaring by the dearth of great two-way forwards like the Blues & Bruins have.

Another (preferably right-handed) sniper is something else that's missing, although it's easy to say that with the team struggling to manage even one measly goal a game. Maybe Monahan, Lindholm & Tkachuk are enough, or maybe someone who can wire one-timers like a Stamkos, Laine or Tarasenko would at very least get the PP going. Trading for one is going to be pretty much impossible without moving Gaudreau, and doing that would take away the best playmaker on the roster.

On paper, the defence is fine albeit thin. There's some good mobility back there, and the team is probably missing Brodie. His suffering might also be impacting the guys mentally, as most of this losing streak has occurred during his absence. Treliving has drafted just one defenceman in the last three drafts, I believe, and in 2016 took a guy in Fox who ended up not wanting to sign. With Valimaki hurt, there's a big nothing in terms of quality D prospects to fill in. Yelesin's signing was a good move, but they've got to get more D prospects in addition to immediate forward help.

A few outstanding months in '18-19 masked the Flames' deficiencies, and then the Avs exposed them in the playoffs. As poorly as they're playing, the team isn't this bad; nor are they anywhere near contender status.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would agree that retaining some of Neal's deal would have been the best course over a straight trade with Edmonton. However I'm also assuming that was looked at and didn't work (other teams not willing, or the club ownership not on board with the ticket retained).

So if that's true then it's keep Neal for four years (they wouldn't let him buy him out by all suggestions) or take the Lucic deal.

Neal is drifting far below NHL worthy. If you look at evolving wild's WAR model he's literally the 21st worst forward in hockey (50 minutes or more this season). He's been so bad at five on five that he's below replacement level despite scoring on half his shots on the powerplay.

If you take that same model and sort it by five on five offensive contribution ... James Neal is the worst forward in the NHL. Worst!

Agree or disagree with the guy's model ... it's not mine. But it's not a Calgary fan building it, and it certainly matches with the eye test from last season.

Boat anchor.

Do you know what Neal’s WAR in 17-18 was? Just curious because even at the time 5.75 seemed steep for a one dimensional player.

[Kovaz]

I think the tricky part with evaluating Treliving is when you look at what he inherited. He started with Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Backlund, Brodie already as a core, and they made the playoffs before he had a chance to do much of anything.

Right now we're debating whether or not our core is good enough - can you win with Gaudreau and Monahan as your starts and Backlund anchoring a second line. But rewind to the summer of 2015. If you're in Treliving's shoes then - what do you do? Our team, while flawed, was clearly too good for the type of tanking that the Edmontons, Torontos, and Buffalos of the world were doing. At the time, the narrative seemed to be "Gaudreau, Monahan, and Brodie are the next Kane, Toews, and Keith!"

Given that, what was he supposed to do? You've got a core that's clearly a cut above the true bottom feeders, so the only way you're getting a top-5 draft pick is if something goes catastrophically wrong (a-la Hiller or Gulutzan). Should he have intentionally iced a bad roster around those guys? I doubt he still has his job if that were the case. Should he have traded the core and started another rebuild? He'd have been crucified.

So strategically, I think he went with the only plan that made sense: assume that your core guys are good enough to be core guys, and build around them with long-term moves. The Hamilton trades alone were massive wins value-wise - turning a 15th overall pick and 2 second-rounders into two young top-5 picks signed to great deals is about as good as it gets.

At the end of the day, the guys slumping down the stretch and the guys that are falling apart this year are the guys he inherited to build around. We're not winning a thing without Gaudreau and Monahan being elite, and without Backlund being a damn good #2 - but that's what they've been for years. Maybe it's the coach, maybe it's the players. I don't know. But I have a hard time faulting Treliving for Gaudreau being the worst flame on the ice.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Na. Disagree. I think hindsight after the first 9 months after the trade made it look like a win because Lindholm really broke out and Dougie had his traditions 2/3 of an adjustment with a new team. Now that he is comfortable, like he had gotten in Calgary, he is taking off and looking like a Norris level defencemen. Lindholm on the other hand is slipping back a little, although still a very good player. Don’t know if we’ll ever see Hanifin blossom into more than he currently is, I’ll keep hoping but I’m sceptical. As it stand now it’s a Norris Level defencemen plus small pieces for a very good but not great winger (who probably could play centre but it’s still to be determined if he’d produce at the same level there) and an inconsistent defencemen. Again, I don’t do that trade.

Hamilton is a UFA after next season.

The trade was also about locking in 2 decent players for a combined 12 years vs. 3 years of Hamilton.


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[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You'd be right if that's what they think and aren't doing anything about it.

But I for one don't agree with you, so maybe just maybe the ownership group doesn't either?

Then I guess the last bit of my post applies to you as well.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Saving billionaires some money should matter so little to any of us that it shouldn’t even be brought up.

It matters when it’s affects your budget.


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[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It matters when it’s affects your budget.


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If it affects the budget for non cap reasons then you should be saying #### these billionaires.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Then I guess the last bit of my post applies to you as well.

Calling people dumb now because they disagree with you? Fantastic.

[keenan87]

Who would even fire Treliving? Ken King?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Who would even fire Treliving? Ken King?

I suspect the order would come from the owners, but it would be KK as CEO for CFEG that would do it.

[dammage79]

How many GMs get a 3rd coaching hire? Few, very few.

That being said, Hes not going anywhere any time soon. I just wish he would be more prudent about team life cycles. I look at Chicagos stint at the tippy top of the league for so long. They replaced so many players and brought in their drafted players and it just worked. I wish to see that here.

We have great drafting, we have a crack shot contract negotiator. But, we also have a weak pro scouting and free agent signer.

Tree needs to play to his strengths and avoid his weaknesses.

This cap hell is only temporary. It's not what Feaster had to purge after Sutter did what he did. Just keep drafting well, slide them in when ready.

[Badgers Nose]

Yeah a good GM needs to plan around the cycle so that the end of one and start of another is not so abrupt. I don’t disagree with you, but I think it takes a lot of patience to give BT another coach (and let’s be honest that pretty much has to happen now). That kind of patience is rare in pro sports.

He’s had to eat a fair bit of bad contracts that he himself went after, as you say. That would bug me a lot as an owner. .

He needs to solve his self imposed cap jail - maybe by tweaking the core and packaging a bad contract.

I’m 50/50 on whether he should stay. He’s not bad, just not good enough.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I suspect the order would come from the owners, but it would be KK as CEO for CFEG that would do it.

Isn’t John Bean the boss now?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Oh yeah I think you are right

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Hamilton is a UFA after next season.

The trade was also about locking in 2 decent players for a combined 12 years vs. 3 years of Hamilton.

How awesome would it be to have Treliving pull off another deal on that scale...

Say, Jankowski & Brodie or Hamonic & Frolík for another Lindholm & Hanafin.

Kylington is the sweetener apparently. (although I wish he wasn't)

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by David Struch

How awesome would it be to have Treliving pull off another deal on that scale...

Say, Jankowski & Brodie or Hamonic & Frolík for another Lindholm & Hanafin.

Kylington is the sweetener apparently. (although I wish he wasn't)

He had Hamilton to trade previously. You won't get that type of return for cap dumps and rental players.

[Squirrel]

I recall that when Peters was hired the general feeling was that this was the last coaching change that Tre would be able to make before all the fingers pointed back at himself. I think Tre has had enough time to show what he is and isn't capable of as a GM.
Average results that have allowed the team to remain respectable in the regular season but are nowhere near being a post-season threat.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

He had Hamilton to trade previously. You won't get that type of return for cap dumps and rental players.

And Adam Fox. Would he be the top prospect in our organization today? I’d imagine so.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

And Adam Fox. Would he be the top prospect in our organization today? I’d imagine so.

Guaranteed he would never wear a Flames jersey though. He wasnt going to wear anything but a rangers jersey. And him being added to the deal made it happen. And I for one am still over the moon with what we have from that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Guaranteed he would never wear a Flames jersey though. He wasnt going to wear anything but a rangers jersey. And him being added to the deal made it happen. And I for one am still over the moon with what we have from that.

All fine but my point is that he was a valuable trade chip. Kylington might be the closest today but not as valuable IMO.