Training Camp Day 5 Notes: Mangiapane-Kadri-Phillips

[CroFlames]

I'm rooting for him. I root for all our prospects, obviously. If you ain't cheering for them, then what is the point?

But I just don't think Phillips makes it. He's tiny. Add in the fact that this is a Sutter team, and the chances diminish.

There are only a handful of tiny guys who made it in the NHL, and they have been uber skilled. He's OK skilled.

I just don't see it happening, but I'm hoping beyond hope.

[TheScorpion]

Can't tell if a guy is good in the NHL without giving him a shot in the NHL. He's the most productive player of his age group in the A. That counts for something.

Time for more preseason chances. He's earned them.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

There's room for a lot of players if we're not too attached to has-beens and Brett Ritchie

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Phillips
Milano - Kadri - Toffoli
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman
Dube - Ruzicka - Duehr/Klapka

Huberdeau needs a speedy finisher a la Duclair to play with.

Toffoli needs playmakers to play with

Mangiapane line is flawless already

Then a kids line

Unless something totally amazing happens in preseason, this will never happen.

[Lanny_McDonald]

We all hope he makes it. What a crazy story line the league will have. Calgary swaps one midget for an even smaller one. Would completely fly in the face of everything the team has done since Sutter came on board. Talk about a twist in the narrative? Would be fun to see develop. The question is how does he make it?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I'm looking at this from the view that the team is trying to fill the lineup with capable NHL players and doing so with Sutter coaching the team. I recognize the reliance on size and speed that made the team successful last season. I don't see that changing in any way this year. Unless Phillips turns into an immediate offensive dynamo at the NHL level, they aren't going to give him the rope he needs to prove himself. There is the biggest knock against him. The top six needs a proven scorer and play in a Sutter system. I'm not sure Phillips is that guy, and if the Flames believed he was they would have inked him to deal that is not set to make him an UFA at the end of this season. The Flames have better options in camp, so Phillips will have to blow some doors off to earn a spot. There is a spot there to be earned, but he has to crawl over a number of players, all of which have other characteristics that make them a better fit for the team.

The Flames have 8 clear cut top nine forwards and maybes after that.

Phillips is a maybe because he hasn't had great camps in the past and lacks size.
Pelletier is a maybe because he hasn't proven he's ready to take on this level.
Ruzicka is a maybe because he plays the wrong position and suffers from inconsistency.
Milano is a maybe because he doesn't have a contract, has had concussion issues, and had his last season tail off.

All four guys are maybes, not just Phillips. The Flames don't have that other top nine guy ready.

Phillips can beat the other three out if he proves he's better than the other three.

[Paulie Walnuts]

If Matthew Phillips is going to be the big crazy story line in the league that is probably is good thing for us.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames have 8 clear cut top nine forwards and maybes after that.

Phillips is a maybe because he hasn't had great camps in the past and lacks size.
Pelletier is a maybe because he hasn't proven he's ready to take on this level.
Ruzicka is a maybe because he plays the wrong position and suffers from inconsistency.
Milano is a maybe because he doesn't have a contract, has had concussion issues, and had his last season tail off.

All four guys are maybes, not just Phillips. The Flames don't have that other top nine guy ready.

Phillips can beat the other three out if he proves he's better than the other three.

Agreed, however if Phillips, Ruzicka or Milano are even close in terms of performance by the end of the training camp

In my view, Phillips will be cut,

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames have 8 clear cut top nine forwards and maybes after that.

Phillips is a maybe because he hasn't had great camps in the past and lacks size.
Pelletier is a maybe because he hasn't proven he's ready to take on this level.
Ruzicka is a maybe because he plays the wrong position and suffers from inconsistency.
Milano is a maybe because he doesn't have a contract, has had concussion issues, and had his last season tail off.

All four guys are maybes, not just Phillips. The Flames don't have that other top nine guy ready.

Phillips can beat the other three out if he proves he's better than the other three.

I disagree. Because of Phillips size he not only has to beat out the other guys, he needs to be heads and tails over all of them. Size matters and plays into the decision-making process. If all things are equal Phillips is the weakest of the bunch because of his size. You just can't look past that characteristic unless he is blowing you away. Phillips has to score to have the advantage, and the unicorn point doesn't cut it IMO. If it's a close competition it will go to the guy with the most speed and size. This is a Sutter team after all and playing heavy is an expectation.

It's awesome and refreshing we have a good enough team that we can go back-and-forth over one position and four possible players. Even though the position is an important one, it's good to have options.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I disagree. Because of Phillips size he not only has to beat out the other guys, he needs to be heads and tails over all of them. Size matters and plays into the decision-making process. If all things are equal Phillips is the weakest of the bunch because of his size. You just can't look past that characteristic unless he is blowing you away. Phillips has to score to have the advantage, and the unicorn point doesn't cut it IMO. If it's a close competition it will go to the guy with the most speed and size. This is a Sutter team after all and playing heavy is an expectation.

It's awesome and refreshing we have a good enough team that we can go back-and-forth over one position and four possible players. Even though the position is an important one, it's good to have options.

Not in my mind.

I think size is an issue for sure.

But it doesn't trump other issues at all. If a guy is a terrible skater he can't keep up and won't play in your top nine. If a guy can't think the game, plays will die on his stick and he won't fit in your top nine. If a guy is too small to get into the dirty areas he won't contribute and won't fit in your top nine.

I agree he has to beat the other guys out, but then the other guys have to beat him out too.

It's an issue for sure, but they're all limiting factors. One of them has to overcome it.

But in the real world and not hypotheticals I hear you. Ruzicka is big, has decent wheels, sees the ice well, but is inconsistent and floats. That's likely a package that wins out in the end.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not in my mind.

I think size is an issue for sure.

But it doesn't trump other issues at all. If a guy is a terrible skater he can't keep up and won't play in your top nine. If a guy can't think the game, plays will die on his stick and he won't fit in your top nine. If a guy is too small to get into the dirty areas he won't contribute and won't fit in your top nine.

I agree he has to beat the other guys out, but then the other guys have to beat him out too.

It's an issue for sure, but they're all limiting factors. One of them has to overcome it.

But in the real world and not hypotheticals I hear you. Ruzicka is big, has decent wheels, sees the ice well, but is inconsistent and floats. That's likely a package that wins out in the end.

Yup, they’ll likely go with Ruzicka and look for outside help if he doesn’t step up. Pelletier, Zary may get a chance later if they can’t find anyone.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I still put it as Ruzicka, Milano, Pelletier, then Phillips as options. I think that's what Sutter would prefer in the bodies available. Phillips has three guys he has to climb over and show he is head and tails better than, and the best way to do that is generate offense and scoring. Last night didn't help his cause IMO.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yup, they’ll likely go with Ruzicka and look for outside help if he doesn’t step up. Pelletier, Zary may get a chance later if they can’t find anyone.

The question is does Ruzicka have any trade value?
It would be hard to think that teams like Seattle, Chicago, Montreal, and Arizona that are rebuilding and lacking in depth would not take a 6'4" 230# center like Ruzicka if he is put on waivers.
Even if he has a poor training camp, he played okay last year and the potential is enormous.
Asset management thinking if he does not earn a spot on the roster after camp what is he worth in a trade?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

At what age do we consider forwards to be developed. 24?



the charts liked below suggests that 24-25 are peak point production ages in the NHL.



With that in mind, Phillips might be having his final shot at cracking the team.





https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/...s-age-analysis



https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comm...e_aging_curve/

Well, he is almost certainly going to be a UFA after this year, so yes, this is his last shot to make the team.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I still put it as Ruzicka, Milano, Pelletier, then Phillips as options. I think that's what Sutter would prefer in the bodies available. Phillips has three guys he has to climb over and show he is head and tails better than, and the best way to do that is generate offense and scoring. Last night didn't help his cause IMO.

I'm not sure how much the org loves Ruzicka's play down the stretch last year, and through camp so far. Feels like some of the bad habits that were mentioned around the time when he was drafted with some lazy play have crept back into his game.

Didn't love his effort at all last night.

Zary, Milano, Pelletier, Phillips and probably even Schwindt all looked better and more engaged IMO, even at centre ice I could see him being passed by Zary and Schwindt this year.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Zary, Milano, Pelletier, Phillips and probably even Schwindt all looked better and more engaged IMO, even at centre ice I could see him being passed by Zary and Schwindt this year.

Maybe that's why the team has asked him to move to the wing? They don't like something about his defensive awareness in the middle? I don't know what that could be because he was a plus player in his opportunities last year. Thing is they recognize what they have here. A big player with hands that needs to find his niche. The wing is probably a great place for him, considering the log jam at center. I suspect they are going to develop him in this role. Whether that is in the AHL or NHL is the question. Based on his contract status I think he may end up doing some time in the AHL unless they feel he is likely to get snagged in waivers (a good possibility IMO). I think he sticks because of his waiver status.

[Enoch Root]

Ruzicka has all the tools to be an NHLer, no doubt. And I know that his metrics are fine. But the guy just underwhelms me. I keep watching him and I just can't get on board. He has never shown me anything that would make we want him on my team.

Love the way Zary plays. And Pelletier too, though it is looking so far like he still isn't ready. Phillips has been good, but not good enough (yet) where I'd say he's earned the spot.

My money is on Milano. I know he hasn't stood out yet, but we have to consider the role here: they need a goal scorer. And the difference between Milano and the rest of these guys is that he can do that. Like Toffoli - it doesn't matter that the rest of your game is mediocre, if you can put the puck in the net, there is probably a position open for you.

I didn't expect much from Eakin, but he may earn himself a 4th line role.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ruzicka has all the tools to be an NHLer, no doubt. And I know that his metrics are fine. But the guy just underwhelms me. I keep watching him and I just can't get on board. He has never shown me anything that would make we want him on my team.

Love the way Zary plays. And Pelletier too, though it is looking so far like he still isn't ready. Phillips has been good, but not good enough (yet) where I'd say he's earned the spot.

My money is on Milano. I know he hasn't stood out yet, but we have to consider the role here: they need a goal scorer. And the difference between Milano and the rest of these guys is that he can do that. Like Toffoli - it doesn't matter that the rest of your game is mediocre, if you can put the puck in the net, there is probably a position open for you.

I didn't expect much from Eakin, but he may earn himself a 4th line role.

Milano and Eakin played on the same line versus the Canucks and I have to say Eakin was more effective. Milano tried a few things that didn't work and he's obviously the more creative player. Eakin seems like a pro. His career took a tumble after he got the really bad call against him in the POs versus the Sharks that cost Vegas the series.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames have 8 clear cut top nine forwards and maybes after that.

Phillips is a maybe because he hasn't had great camps in the past and lacks size.
Pelletier is a maybe because he hasn't proven he's ready to take on this level.
Ruzicka is a maybe because he plays the wrong position and suffers from inconsistency.
Milano is a maybe because he doesn't have a contract, has had concussion issues, and had his last season tail off.

All four guys are maybes, not just Phillips. The Flames don't have that other top nine guy ready.

Phillips can beat the other three out if he proves he's better than the other three.

I don’t think those players equate. I agree they are all maybes but the potential is vastly different.

Phillips best case is a utility player who maybe carves out a league min year to year role. A feel good story.

Ruzicka is a chance at every coaches dream. A massive guy who can play. The flames will absolutely invest in trying to make that happen.
Milano easily has top 9 skills and could be a 20 goal guy if it comes together. Maybe it won’t, but that’s worth a shot.

Fair or not, Phillips opportunity won’t be the same as those 2. IMO

[Always Earned Never Given]

They should try Phillips and Milano together.

With his size, pretty sure you can park Phillips behind the net and no-one would take note.
Then just rim the puck around the boards where he would intercept it and flip the puck over the net where Milano would bat at it in the net.

and it would instantly be called the "flippigan"

[saillias]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1574981243195854848

Not the players you want to see at the bottom of this card to be honest. Stealing a spot is one thing but you definitely can't be the worst forwards on the ice.