[Signing] Flames sign Mangiapane (1 yr, $715k, 2 way)

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Problem is there are lots of different agents, all fighting to get their own clients the biggest piece of that pie. The top end players are the more rare commodity, so the agents are more successful with them. I doubt any of them are deliberately sacrificing their own lower end players.

Yes this is true. My point was more that it is hypocritical for agents to point at the system being broken, when they are the same people negotiating all the deals.

And it is an interesting question for the PA too. Is the PA there to negotiate a CBA that benefits all the players to the same degree, or is it there to largely serve the top end players?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yes this is true. My point was more that it is hypocritical for agents to point at the system being broken, when they are the same people negotiating all the deals.

And it is an interesting question for the PA too. Is the PA there to negotiate a CBA that benefits all the players to the same degree, or is it there to largely serve the top end players?

Players will be based on the FMV for those players.

Since there is a cap, if the top end players start getting a larger slice of the pie, someone else will get less. If teams didn't think they were worth that larger slice, they wouldn't be getting it.

I don't think it's the job of the PA to try and limit anyone's top end salary, as a method of pushing money down the ranks. Let the chips fall where they may.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yes this is true. My point was more that it is hypocritical for agents to point at the system being broken, when they are the same people negotiating all the deals.

And it is an interesting question for the PA too. Is the PA there to negotiate a CBA that benefits all the players to the same degree, or is it there to largely serve the top end players?

Agreed. Same self-interest issue as on the teams. In the CBA, they bargain collectively to try to keep things reasonable as a whole, but outside of that, they are each individually trying to do the best for their particular teams, so individual GMs have no hesitation in signing contracts that make sense for them but are damaging to the overall market.

Not sure how they go about fixing it, other than restricting individual salaries further. I think the crux is your point about the PA. They are ostensibly in it for everybody, but the fact of the matter is that their leverage all comes from the stars. Lower tier players are replaceable.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Players will be based on the FMV for those players.

Since there is a cap, if the top end players start getting a larger slice of the pie, someone else will get less. If teams didn't think they were worth that larger slice, they wouldn't be getting it.

I don't think it's the job of the PA to try and limit anyone's top end salary, as a method of pushing money down the ranks. Let the chips fall where they may.

Fine, then Winter shouldn't complain about the system being "broken."

The system is doing what it was intended to do. I found it quite hilarious that he happily acknowledged this and said that everyone has done very well under the current (apparently "broken") system.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Fine, then don't complain about the system being "broken," as Winter did this morning.

The system is doing what it was intended to do. I found it quite hilarious that he happily acknowledged this and said that everyone has done very well under the current (apparently "broken") system.

I don't believe I've ever complained it was broken.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't believe I've ever complained it was broken.

Yeah, this was not necessarily directed at you, but this is essentially what Rich Winter did, which is completely hypocritical as Jiri pointed out.

[jlh2640]

Finally !1!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I just listened to Eric Francis's interview with Rich Winter. It is fairly informative, but my god, Winter sounds like a pompous #######.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/pinder-...w-deal-flames/

Especially given his client list. Gio (who he probably snagged when he was an unknown), Tatar and a bunch of low end guys.

It's funny how he admitted the cap was to make the league competitive, that this was a worthy goal, and then advocated for a luxury tax. Yeah, the luxury tax sure makes other leagues competitive.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't love the guy either but through his connection to Winter he had some real reporting on this negotiation that we would not have heard otherwise.

Except Francis reported the Flames offered 1 year and $800k.

Which was obviously wrong.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by AC

Except Francis reported the Flames offered 1 year and $800k.

Which was obviously wrong.

I think it's possible that WAS the offer last week

[1991 Canadian]

I am generally okay with Treliving’s handling of RFA’s. He has been consistently tough with all of them, especially the ones without arb rights. That said, I think the Flames missed an opportunity to bump up Mangiapnes AAV in exchange for a more medium term deal.

I would not surprised in the slightest if Mangiapane puts up a 15 goal season this year. So while he’ll be a steal this year at 715k, he will have arb rights and be due for a significant raise in 2020. Next year, the Flames are losing a ton of contract value with Brodie, Frolik, Hamonic, Andersson, Kylington and Jankowski all due for new contracts. Getting good value out of years 2 or 3 of a Managiapane contract would help offset the loss of some of those below market value veteran contracts.

Ryan Dzingel is the closet comparable I could find from a career arc / contract standpoint. He was a 7th round pick who slowly progressed into a top 6 NHL forward. While there is no guarantee that a player will keep improving, I’d rather see a team bet on these young RFA’s that they see potential in.

Year | Points/Game | Contract ($ amount is AAV)
2015-16 | 0.300 | $715k (last year of ELC)
2016-17 | 0.395 | $750k (1 year contract)
2017-18 | 0.519 | $1.8M (Year 1 of 2 year contract)
2018-19 | 0.718 | $1.8M (Year 2 of 2 year contract)
2019-20 | TBD | $3.375M (2 year UFA deal)

For the 2016-17 to 2018-19 seasons, Dzingels average salary was $1.45M. Hindsight is 20/20, but if the Sens signed him to a 3 year $1.45M AAV deal after his ELC instead of that 1 year 750k deal, they’d have an extra 350k of cap space in years 2 and 3. In a cap dominated league, you need to moneyball some value out of these contracts. Outside of ELC’s, locking in these midlevel RFA’s to good contracts before they pop is one of the few ways left that GM’s can add contract value to their team.

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I think it's possible that WAS the offer last week

i agree. Plausible the offer was pulled when camp started

[topfiverecords]

Or the 85k was shifted to the AHL salary.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Or the 85k was shifted to the AHL salary.

reportedly, his AHL salary is $70K so unless he was making -$15K that's not the case.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by AC

Except Francis reported the Flames offered 1 year and $800k.

Which was obviously wrong.

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I think it's possible that WAS the offer last week

More than likely the $800,000 figure was a number floated by the Flames on a multi-year deal. Winter said there were a few offers on the table with different structures on term and dollar-value.

I seriously doubt the Flames made one offer and then pulled it and lowered their ask at the first sign of trouble.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

reportedly, his AHL salary is $70K so unless he was making -$15K that's not the case.

Based on what report? All i have seen so far is CapFriendly and Puckpedia, both of which could very well be guessing based on NHL salary at this point. Capfriendly specifically says unconfirmed

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Based on what report? All i have seen so far is CapFriendly and Puckpedia, both of which could very well be guessing based on NHL salary at this point. Capfriendly specifically says unconfirmed

I read it above but just now I re-read what I saw and and it's not confirmed (and from a less than reliable source).

That said, I'm not sure that it makes sense that it would be traded to the minor league salary. It makes some sense foe the minor league salary to increase, but that would have happened anyway.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

reportedly, his AHL salary is $70K so unless he was making -$15K that's not the case.

nm, I see your other posts.

I think it's unlikely he didn't get an AHL raise.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Hopefully this doesn’t result in hard feelings for mangiapane in the future.

If only treliving was this ruthless when signing ufas.

Not ruthless at all. System took care of it for him. Player with no leverage simply stopped posturing and took what was likely his only option (players can talk a big game about going to Europe but they usually don’t actually want to). UFAs have leverage. That’s the only difference.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That's the fascinating thing - there is a pie that gets divided to all the players. Someone is going to get squeezed. With top end players, wanting to get paid on their second contracts - that money has to come from someone.

The squeeze likely comes in the middle.

But it's a finite amount of cash. That's not a broken system.
And the agents are at the heart of it. If I were a player I would ask my agent are they more concerned about getting me the best deal, or one of their other clients?

It was rich listening to Winter yak about how the cap was the problem after he tried swinging at $1M for Mangiapane. The problem with properly divvying up that pie is agents like Winter throwing the cap aside and negotiating for max money with every player.

If you gave GMs across the league a clean slate and a panel of arbitrators to settle discrepancies, I'm sure there would be a wealth of cap space to go around. Cap-strapped teams are littered with big swings of contracts that haven't panned out... but they're largely packed with mid-roster players making far more % of the cap than they should. Treliving has great value signings up and down the roster yet I'm sure we can all come up with $2-5M that could be corrected. Agents of course have a huge part in that.

Playing half a season and putting up 13PTS just translates to another opportunity next year to keep going. I don't think a low-term QO gets negotiated too often, and I think Trelivings talk of it being unexpected speaks to that too. Agents be greedy.