The Great Flames Goalie Debate Thread

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

just this past weekend, Smith beat Nashville but didn't look so hot, while Rittich was pretty close to perfect vs E=NG but still couldn't get back in till Smith hurt himself.

Because Smith made up for his bad goal in the Nashville game by making a big save right after and won his 6th straight game and Rittich lost his game against the Oilers even though you can't blame a goalie for a 1-0 loss.

I have zero issues going with the guy who keeps winning. Up until last night Rittich wasn't winning his games and Smith was. Now he has a chance to go on a winning streak of his own.

[iloveicedhockey]

Thanks for setting this up. The PGT was not as fun as it should've been after last night's result.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Because Smith made up for his bad goal in the Nashville game by making a big save right after and won his 6th straight game and Rittich lost his game against the Oilers even though you can't blame a goalie for a 1-0 loss.

I have zero issues going with the guy who keeps winning. Up until last night Rittich wasn't winning his games and Smith was. Now he has a chance to go on a winning streak of his own.

Looking at it from the other side, Rittich’s losses include that 1-0 and also a 2-0, and Smith’s wins included something like a 14 shot night with no real challenge, plus Columbus where the game was wild, he was no better than Rittich but the Flames piled up 9.

If you are giving the goalie credit for team wins and holding a goalie accountable for losses when the team is shut out, then it doesn’t matter what goalie you pick off of the scrap heap as long as they are average NHL caliber

[Lanny_McDonald]

Outside of one year, Smith has been a middling (that means average) goaltender at best. His style is unorthodox and he does not rely on his size like you expect. You would expect a large goaltender to play his angles well and block more pucks than anything, but this is not Smith's strength. I'm not sure if it is the smaller equipment, but Smith is playing very small for a goaltender his size, and sits way too deep in his net, making the holes that much larger.

One of the fundamental things about Smith's game that really bothers me is his ability to get beat on the cross the net deke. A guy with the reach of Smith should be active with his stick, and his stick is always out of position. He never attempts the poke check and relies on the downward facing snow angel, which opens up his massive five hole as he splays himself. If he is not engaging the poke check a guy like that should be keeping that paddle down and closing off that five hole. Real simple stuff that most goaltenders are taught at an early age, but Smith is terrible at, and consistently gets beat.

There is going to be an argument that he played on a crappy Coyotes team, but when you look at the goaltending statistics of the team there wasn't a great discrepancy between starter and backup. In some years the backup posted better statistics in both major measures.


One of things that made me bristle when the Flames traded for Smith was his history with the Coyotes. He was not a great team mate and was always looking form someone else to blame for his performance than himself. He would toss the team and specific team mates under the bus in interviews, and would even have meltdowns on the ice when he thought a defenseman did not get the job done. This type of stuff does not lend itself to high performance for the individual or the team. This was a major concern for me, but he has not displayed this stuff with any frequency in Calgary. The stringer veteran leadership may have something to do with that, or Smith being happier on a competitive team.

The Flames need a guy they can rely upon to make saves, something Smith is failing at. Smith's S% is a horrific .888, good for 51st, or 10th worst in the league. He fairs a bit better with his 2.99 GAA, but that is only good for 38th in the NHL. Both lag well behind David Rittich's .921 S% (tied for 12th) and his 2.31 GAA (6th). I'm not confident that David Rittch is the guy to carry the mail, but I would be giving him a shot. I am 100% confident that Smith is not the goaltender for this team and we are looking at a disappointing end result with him being the go-to guy.

[Trailer Fire]

I was just thinking about this this morning, but I think the Flames should target a goalie in the mid-round of the upcoming draft. A Mads Sogaard in the earlier rounds or a Lucas Rheyneuclaudes are intriguing just by stats so far. I haven’t looked up and videos or anything cause I’m stuck at work, but I think it would be worth it to pick up another goalie this draft.

Also, is here currently a draft thread, or is there going to be? The search function on my phone (Tapatalk) is being useless.

[Classic_Sniper]

Personally, I wouldn’t start Smith at home for a long time. His performance at home in the last 1.5 years has been down right abysmal at .894 through his entire time as a Flames. It’s no surprise he gets the bronx cheers whenever he’s in net. The home crowd has zero confidence in him.

Start him on the road where he’s sitting at an impressive.924. It’s night and day, like 2 completely different goaltenders. Start Smith on the road only and at this point, Big Save Dave has proven to be the better goaltender, so he should receive the bulk of the workload and get the tougher/bigger games as well IMO.

Under Rittich, the Flames might actually be the best team in the NHL in goals allowed. Smith’s weak goals have really skewed the total GA of the team.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by New Era

Outside of one year, Smith has been a middling (that means average) goaltender at best. His style is unorthodox and he does not rely on his size like you expect. You would expect a large goaltender to play his angles well and block more pucks than anything, but this is not Smith's strength. I'm not sure if it is the smaller equipment, but Smith is playing very small for a goaltender his size, and sits way too deep in his net, making the holes that much larger.

One of the fundamental things about Smith's game that really bothers me is his ability to get beat on the cross the net deke. A guy with the reach of Smith should be active with his stick, and his stick is always out of position. He never attempts the poke check and relies on the downward facing snow angel, which opens up his massive five hole as he splays himself. If he is not engaging the poke check a guy like that should be keeping that paddle down and closing off that five hole. Real simple stuff that most goaltenders are taught at an early age, but Smith is terrible at, and consistently gets beat.

There is going to be an argument that he played on a crappy Coyotes team, but when you look at the goaltending statistics of the team there wasn't a great discrepancy between starter and backup. In some years the backup posted better statistics in both major measures.


One of things that made me bristle when the Flames traded for Smith was his history with the Coyotes. He was not a great team mate and was always looking form someone else to blame for his performance than himself. He would toss the team and specific team mates under the bus in interviews, and would even have meltdowns on the ice when he thought a defenseman did not get the job done. This type of stuff does not lend itself to high performance for the individual or the team. This was a major concern for me, but he has not displayed this stuff with any frequency in Calgary. The stringer veteran leadership may have something to do with that, or Smith being happier on a competitive team.

The Flames need a guy they can rely upon to make saves, something Smith is failing at. Smith's S% is a horrific .888, good for 51st, or 10th worst in the league. He fairs a bit better with his 2.99 GAA, but that is only good for 38th in the NHL. Both lag well behind David Rittich's .921 S% (tied for 12th) and his 2.31 GAA (6th). I'm not confident that David Rittch is the guy to carry the mail, but I would be giving him a shot. I am 100% confident that Smith is not the goaltender for this team and we are looking at a disappointing end result with him being the go-to guy.

To be fair to him, after about game 20 this season he finally stopped doing this in his flames post game interviews because it finally dawned on him that it was just getting him even more fan hate...

I think you have a great analysis and I think that while rittich hasn't proven anything, he does have a sample size of good performances all season.

If the problem some posters have with trusting Rittich is that he doesn't have a proven track record that is fine, but Smith has now put together a very solid track record of being an average, and in the last 50 games played, of being a well below average goalie. I wonder why smith gets so much credit for being an average goalie while Rittich gets no trust at all.

Should be Rittich's net here for a while, lets hope all the smith supporters can give him the same level of support they've been giving smith.

[Itse]

I'm not sure what's the best way to handle Smith, except I don't want us heading to the playoffs with him as a starter. I don't like that risk.

I am however sure that Rittich should play more. He's been way better, he's earned it, and we really need to get a better look at how he can handle starter pressure.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Looking at it from the other side, Rittich’s losses include that 1-0 and also a 2-0, and Smith’s wins included something like a 14 shot night with no real challenge, plus Columbus where the game was wild, he was no better than Rittich but the Flames piled up 9.

If you are giving the goalie credit for team wins and holding a goalie accountable for losses when the team is shut out, then it doesn’t matter what goalie you pick off of the scrap heap as long as they are average NHL caliber

Rittich has had lots of wins where the team really made it pretty easy (oddly enough, his LA SO was one of his easiest outings, similarly Vegas, Oilers, etc.). He has had at least a couple losses that were on the team and not him (Montreal). He has stolen a game or two (NYR/Jets). He has been at fault for a loss (Dallas) and was bailed out (Chicago, CBJ). But overall I thought he was better in October than lately, just as far as his general play is concerned.

Smith has caused a few points to be dropped, far more than he has saved (I can only really think of two games where the win was on him over and above the team effort). But he was playing pretty well (and not just "average" in the month leading up to last night. So I was getting pretty happy about goaltending for this year as a tandem. To me, Smith's October and first half of November wouldn't matter much if he turned it around. Peters at least seemed to think along the same lines.

[TheIronMaiden]

What is the official status for Smith? Is he out long term?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

...I'm still in favour of moving to a 1A/1B situation with Rittich getting more games. We have to keep in mind that Rittich has never had a heavy workload in his whole career. People always talk about putting players in positions to succeed. It makes sense for Peters to tread carefully with him.

I think we are there now, and have been there for a good month or more. Since the end of October Mike Smith has started ten games, and Rittich has started nine. I expect that it will continue like this for the duration of the season. Rittich is already on pace to play more games this year than he has since he played in Europe.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Trailer Fire

I was just thinking about this this morning, but I think the Flames should target a goalie in the mid-round of the upcoming draft. A Mads Sogaard in the earlier rounds or a Lucas Rheyneuclaudes are intriguing just by stats so far. I haven’t looked up and videos or anything cause I’m stuck at work, but I think it would be worth it to pick up another goalie this draft.

Also, is here currently a draft thread, or is there going to be? The search function on my phone (Tapatalk) is being useless.

The Flames have used an insane amount of picks and prospects on goalies throughout the years only to see their assets vanish into thin air. The best goaltender they’ve found was a free one from the Czech League in Rittich. The oilers found Koskinen in the KHL too. I’m pretty much done with this team drafting goaltenders. Signing free ones from overseas should be the new objective.

The only move I’d be interested in is finding one via the waiver wire (i.e. McElhinney) or trading a 7th round pick for insurance just in case an injury occurs or if Smith doesn’t find his game by the trade deadline.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Looking at it from the other side, Rittich’s losses include that 1-0 and also a 2-0, and Smith’s wins included something like a 14 shot night with no real challenge, plus Columbus where the game was wild, he was no better than Rittich but the Flames piled up 9.

If you are giving the goalie credit for team wins and holding a goalie accountable for losses when the team is shut out, then it doesn’t matter what goalie you pick off of the scrap heap as long as they are average NHL caliber

I'm not blaming Rittich for any of the losses but he wasn't getting wins and Smith was. People were begging for a "Win and you're in" mentality from Peters and that's what he was doing other than on back to backs.

Sure Smith had a 14 shot game against LA but people weren't complaining when Rittich let in 3 goals on 15 shots against Chicago at the beginning of November. Both still picked up the win and that's what matters.

[flamesfever]

It seems to me we are giving the same preferential treatment to Smith that we were giving to Hamilton.

IMO if we don't go into the second half with plans to make Rittick the starter, we will start to slide in the standings.

You can't go with a plan to continually count on scoring enough goals to overcome poor goaltending.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

It seems to me we are giving the same preferential treatment to Smith that we were giving to Hamilton.

IMO if we don't go into the second half with plans to make Rittick the starter, we will start to slide in the standings.

You can't go with a plan to continually count on scoring enough goals to overcome poor goaltending.

At some point here the team needs to pick the guy that is going to play the big games and it better be the one that doesn't self implode every half dozen starts. The mid-point of the season is right around the corner and the time for discussion on a bad start or whatever you want to call it for players has long passed. Sooner or later these weak goals are going to cost the team and it may end up resulting in a loss of home ice or a division title considering how tight the standings are.

[Bonded]

We need the goalie voodoo to strike one of our prospects. Gillies, Parsons, or Schneider.



Based on the AHL you almost call up Schneider at this point. I do not watch the Heat but Gilles stats don't look all that promising.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Rittich has had lots of wins where the team really made it pretty easy (oddly enough, his LA SO was one of his easiest outings, similarly Vegas, Oilers, etc.). He has had at least a couple losses that were on the team and not him (Montreal). He has stolen a game or two (NYR/Jets). He has been at fault for a loss (Dallas) and was bailed out (Chicago, CBJ). But overall I thought he was better in October than lately, just as far as his general play is concerned.

Smith has caused a few points to be dropped, far more than he has saved (I can only really think of two games where the win was on him over and above the team effort). But he was playing pretty well (and not just "average" in the month leading up to last night. So I was getting pretty happy about goaltending for this year as a tandem. To me, Smith's October and first half of November wouldn't matter much if he turned it around. Peters at least seemed to think along the same lines.

I wouldn't say he stole the Jets game. Flames put up 5 goals in the first. I actually think this was the game where Rittich started to unravel a bit and getting off his game and followed that start up with a couple losses.

I don't think trading Smith is an option that is realistic. Peters just has to play the goalie whisper and see if he has someone he is comfortable with going forward. Win and your in.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

At some point here the team needs to pick the guy that is going to play the big games and it better be the one that doesn't self implode every half dozen starts.

Yeah, right before the playoffs. It's no different than 2015. Hartley had to pick between Hiller and Ramo who had a tandem going and he picked Hiller.

[burn_this_city]

Smith gets a longer leash because of his ability to stifle the forecheck by playing the puck. Management is still hoping he finds his game because the puck handling is a massive defensive advantage. Dump and chase doesn’t work against Smith and this team struggles a bit against the cycle.

[stone hands]

Smiths been scary bad for a long time, 6 win streak be damned. Results based thinking to rationalize continual usage of this guy is dangerous when you have a guy who has not only looked way better on the eye test, but has much better stats to boot. I frankly do not care that he's lost his last 2 starts nearly as much as some other posters