Whistler wants Alberta oil and gas company to pay for resort's climate change costs

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

How scalable is that? If they can built a test one, that's one thing, but is it reasonable to build enough of them to scrub any useful amount? Or would it require tens of thousands of scrubber plants?

It seems like that is mainly a price issue. If the price of carbon is high enough, the inputs of air, electricity, and water are all pretty available. Could easily get put on low quality land wherever, probably would make the most sense in places with cheap power and good underground sequestration caverns.

[Fuzz]

Ah, OK thanks.

Individual DAC plants can be placed in any country and in multiple climates, and can be built to capture one million tons of CO2 per year. At this large scale, our technology will be able to achieve costs of $100-150 USD per ton of CO₂ captured, purified, and compressed to 150 bar.

Global Co2 emmisions are about 35 billion tons per year. So 35 000 of these plants to completely neutralize our emissions. According to this:
http://datasets.wri.org/dataset/glob...rplantdatabase


there are about 28 500 plants in 164 countries in the database, so not all of them. I'm going to pretend there are 35 000 to match our emissions, and that would include all countries. I know, I know..but I'm ballparking here. So if we wanted to capture half of our global emissions, 60ish % is from fossil fuels. If we installed these at every plant we'd need 17 500. And honestly that sounds entirely do-able. Start by requiring every new plant to build one at the same time. We keep hearing how the first world needs to pay money to third world for climate impacts, but I'd say we should direct funding to this type of device to any plant in the third world. The first world countries can pay for the installation of these in poor countries.

I understand they don't NEED to be co-located, but I'd imagine there is some benefit to having them directly at the emmisions source, and it makes sense that fossil fuel power plants should be responsible for them. It would also spread the effectiveness globally.

Oh, and the cost at $150/ton would be $2.6 trillion. Large, but not an impossible number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation

[GGG]

I look at like electrification. If we didn’t have power plants and electrical Infrastructure and we were trying to electrify the world and build a power grid that would seem like an impossible task. A quick google suggests that there are 62500 power plants so over a period of about 100 years these plants have all been built. The ability to do things on a mass decentralized scale is pretty impressive.

Building 32,000 of these plants to me seems like a much easier task than converting the entire world to non-carbon emitting tech. Just replacing power plants with solar, Nuke, or wind is just as large of a challenge. And that challange also requires a complete rethinking of the automotive industry.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by station

Lol what? Okay, next time I run into the mayor of Whistler I’ll try to mention it. My point here is that this provincial tribalism, the outrage, the boycotts, etc. may be cathartic but ultimately accomplish nothing. Focusing on the far left fringe as representative of BC is like someone from BC posting some bs from Rebel Media and saying it represents Alberta.

'Far Left Fringe' huh?

Crompton’s letter prompted swift protest from some in Alberta’s energy industry and led to cancelled travel plans and a decision to cancel part of an investors conference in Whistler. The mayor said he sincerely regretted that anyone would feel unwelcome in his resort town.

For experts, the outgoing letter illustrated at a local level several broad trends coming together in the conversation around climate change, while the forceful reaction it prompted was indicative of how polarized the debate has become.

Whistler was not alone in asking for payment from producers. More than a dozen other B.C. municipalities recently voted to join a campaign led by West Coast Environmental Law to ask oil and gas companies to chip in on the costs local governments are paying for climate change.

Among the municipalities that have joined the campaign is West Vancouver, according to West Coast Environmental Law. A form letter that was printed on letterhead from the district’s mayor’s office and posted to the environmental firm’s website requests industry recipients to make a financial contribution “to the mitigation of climate change.”

“It is our position that you have played a key role in degrading the global atmosphere and creating a range of threats to our community. Your contribution is readily detectable globally and is therefore considered legally significant and actionable,” read the letter.

“(As) we undertake the task of planning for, and building and modifying our infrastructure and services and developing a community that can withstand current and anticipated climate change, we request you to pay your fair share of the resulting costs.”

Squamish, Victoria, Saanich, North Saanich, Colwood, Highlands, View Royal, Sooke, both the city and district of Powell River, Sechelt, Castlegar, Rossland and Slocan were all listed by West Coast Environmental Law as having voted to send “accountability letters.”

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ers-for-payout

Mayor McCheese is hardly alone and you may call it the 'Far left fringe' but these are elected officials of these districts how then can they not be considered representative?

[station]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, no, there isn't a collision of that type, because if our "resource-heavy economy" were completely shut down tomorrow, it would make no appreciable difference to the security or existence of humanity. There would still be demand for products that create emissions contributing to climate change. Until that demand problem changes, no attempt to undermine Alberta's energy economy will matter at all, regardless of how successful it may be.

Let me introduce you to post 107 where I preemptively agreed with everything you just said.

Originally Posted by station

I completely agree that attacking the Canadian supply side in a vacuum has consequences that many people aren’t thinking through.

I’ve pointed out to many folks around here that if they are protesting the pipeline expansion they should also be protesting increased rail traffic. And I’ve pointed out that a reduction in supply without a corresponding reduction in demand just means the oil comes from some other worse place.

Of course you are right, the Canadian energy industry is a drop in the bucket. In the post you quoted I’m talking about the economies of affluent western nations, where our entire economies are bult on growth, consumption of consumer goods, and heavy demand for resources. Climate change is colliding head on with this world we’ve built and we’re stuck in major coordination failure.

[4X4]

“Climate change is the direct result of pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, including from your products,” her signed letter read.

“You cannot make billions of dollars selling your product, knowing that it is causing significant financial harm to communities around the world, and not expect to pay for at least some of that harm.”

I wonder if there's any oil in the glue these people are sniffing, because that's a reduction I'd be happy about. I just cannot comprehend how these people think. I know it's a ridiculous notion, but man, I'd love to hear the tune they'd sing after a week of being cut off of all things oil. Forget about driving to the grocery store, because the shelves would be bare anyway.

The insane amount of energy spent protesting fossil fuels would be better spent inventing ways to harvest renewable energy, but that's not a cool and easy way to spend your day, so the losers that can't be bothered to think about what they're protesting won't do it. Not that they're smart enough, anyway.

This orchestrated and calculated attack on Alberta oil is so frustrating. Our own countrymen are buying that bull##### that is being fed to them by American interests. People that, ironically, would loathe to be associated with anything American, yet they're attacking their own national industry like puppets.

It's so f-ing unbelievable that it's cool to trash and attempt to destroy literally your/our economy. BC is part of CANADA. They benefit from Alberta oil as much as any other Canadian. What the F is their dysfunction? Quebec too. WTF? You'd rather import from fricken Saudi Arabia, than buy local, and reap the benefits? A country that stones women for not being exactly how men want them to be? Really?

And blocking pipelines that would pay for anything you want... Schools, Hospitals... Dildos... What the hell ever... But no, BC would rather shoot themselves in the face than support their neighbour, who pays the HOA fees for the whole community.

There just isn't even an analogy to properly conveys how f-ing stupid BC and Quebec are. They use more oil than Alberta, and yet treat the industry like it's the blight. Unreal. Simply unfathomably unreal.

The thing that really ticks me off though, is that the industry doesn't defend itself. The Alberta government is barely trying to defend the industry. There should be a campaign equal to the anti-Alberta campaign informing these morons about what they're protesting. Go ahead and protest fossil fuels, but demonizing Alberta in particular is absolutely ridiculous. You'd rather that Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela get your money, instead of your own country? What in the living F?

Why am I related to people that are so goddamned stupid? My own country is so full of stupid. It's embarrassing.

[CaptainCrunch]

No surprise that the group that spearheaded this effort is West Coast Environental Law who lists the Tides Foundation as one of their supporters.



In other words its no surprise that once again a US foundation that is being used as a weapon by US energy industries is being used to attack Alberta and the Oil Sands.


As soon as the word Tides came up on their websites, all of the Alberta Companies should have changed their nice responses to F off.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by 4X4

“Climate change is the direct result of pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, including from your products,” her signed letter read.

“You cannot make billions of dollars selling your product, knowing that it is causing significant financial harm to communities around the world, and not expect to pay for at least some of that harm.”

I wonder if there's any oil in the glue these people are sniffing, because that's a reduction I'd be happy about. I just cannot comprehend how these people think. I know it's a ridiculous notion, but man, I'd love to hear the tune they'd sing after a week of being cut off of all things oil. Forget about driving to the grocery store, because the shelves would be bare anyway.

The insane amount of energy spent protesting fossil fuels would be better spent inventing ways to harvest renewable energy, but that's not a cool and easy way to spend your day, so the losers that can't be bothered to think about what they're protesting won't do it. Not that they're smart enough, anyway.

This orchestrated and calculated attack on Alberta oil is so frustrating. Our own countrymen are buying that bull##### that is being fed to them by American interests. People that, ironically, would loathe to be associated with anything American, yet they're attacking their own national industry like puppets.

It's so f-ing unbelievable that it's cool to trash and attempt to destroy literally your/our economy. BC is part of CANADA. They benefit from Alberta oil as much as any other Canadian. What the F is their dysfunction? Quebec too. WTF? You'd rather import from fricken Saudi Arabia, than buy local, and reap the benefits? A country that stones women for not being exactly how men want them to be? Really?

And blocking pipelines that would pay for anything you want... Schools, Hospitals... Dildos... What the hell ever... But no, BC would rather shoot themselves in the face than support their neighbour, who pays the HOA fees for the whole community.

There just isn't even an analogy to properly conveys how f-ing stupid BC and Quebec are. They use more oil than Alberta, and yet treat the industry like it's the blight. Unreal. Simply unfathomably unreal.

The thing that really ticks me off though, is that the industry doesn't defend itself. The Alberta government is barely trying to defend the industry. There should be a campaign equal to the anti-Alberta campaign informing these morons about what they're protesting. Go ahead and protest fossil fuels, but demonizing Alberta in particular is absolutely ridiculous. You'd rather that Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela get your money, instead of your own country? What in the living F?

Why am I related to people that are so goddamned stupid? My own country is so full of stupid. It's embarrassing.

Yup....and the federal Liberals are complicit in the whole thing along with every level of NDP.

Mind boggling.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No surprise that the group that spearheaded this effort is West Coast Environental Law who lists the Tides Foundation as one of their supporters.



In other words its no surprise that once again a US foundation that is being used as a weapon by US energy industries is being used to attack Alberta and the Oil Sands.


As soon as the word Tides came up on their websites, all of the Alberta Companies should have changed their nice responses to F off.

Toss in the fact that the Trudeau government has donated taxpayer dollars to the Tides Foundation and the whole situation becomes even more ridiculous.

[CroFlames]

Just wondering if these municipalities sent any letters to the coal producers in Sparwood?


Or is it not sexy to bash coal these days, just oil?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Just wondering if these municipalities sent any letters to the coal producers in Sparwood?


Or is it not sexy to bash coal these days, just oil?

Why would they, that's not West Coast Environmental Law's job, they're told to target the Alberta Oil Sands and pipelines.

[station]

Originally Posted by Locke

'Far Left Fringe' huh?

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ers-for-payout

Mayor McCheese is hardly alone and you may call it the 'Far left fringe' but these are elected officials of these districts how then can they not be considered representative?

By this logic, as a citizen of Canada you are represented by the Trudeau Liberals, therefore you must support the carbon tax, so why do you hate Alberta?

Squamish, Victoria, Saanich, North Saanich, Colwood, Highlands, View Royal, Sooke, both the city and district of Powell River, Sechelt, Castlegar, Rossland and Slocan

The west Kootenays, Slocan valley, and metro Victoria. This is BC’s hippy belt.

I will point out again that the NDP here actually lost the election, cling to a tiny coalition majority, and only really oppose Trans Mountain because 3 Green MLAs demand it. They currently poll at 35% popularity. A majority in BC supported TMX when this was coming to a head in the spring.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4624611

There is a also an element here that is reminiscent of the first wave anti-vaxx nonsense that surrounded Andrew Wakefield’s supposed clinical trials that were funded by lawyers looking for a class action suit against big pharma. The Calgary Herald article mentions the following:

The request is part of a campaign by West Coast Environmental Law and started as a motion to Union of British Columbia Municipalities during its annual meeting this year.

The UBCM motion was defeated, but the West Coast Environmental Law campaign carried on by “demanding accountability from fossil fuel companies,” the campaign website reads.

So there is a group of activist lawyers looking to capitalize on the AB/BC divide by fostering further division and ultimately lawsuits. They are actively lobbying BC municipalities to do this.

Here is the campaign page for West Coast Environmental Law:

https://www.wcel.org/campaign-update

[redforever]

Originally Posted by 4X4

“Climate change is the direct result of pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, including from your products,” her signed letter read.

“You cannot make billions of dollars selling your product, knowing that it is causing significant financial harm to communities around the world, and not expect to pay for at least some of that harm.”

I wonder if there's any oil in the glue these people are sniffing, because that's a reduction I'd be happy about. I just cannot comprehend how these people think. I know it's a ridiculous notion, but man, I'd love to hear the tune they'd sing after a week of being cut off of all things oil. Forget about driving to the grocery store, because the shelves would be bare anyway.

The insane amount of energy spent protesting fossil fuels would be better spent inventing ways to harvest renewable energy, but that's not a cool and easy way to spend your day, so the losers that can't be bothered to think about what they're protesting won't do it. Not that they're smart enough, anyway.

This orchestrated and calculated attack on Alberta oil is so frustrating. Our own countrymen are buying that bull##### that is being fed to them by American interests. People that, ironically, would loathe to be associated with anything American, yet they're attacking their own national industry like puppets.

It's so f-ing unbelievable that it's cool to trash and attempt to destroy literally your/our economy. BC is part of CANADA. They benefit from Alberta oil as much as any other Canadian. What the F is their dysfunction? Quebec too. WTF? You'd rather import from fricken Saudi Arabia, than buy local, and reap the benefits? A country that stones women for not being exactly how men want them to be? Really?

And blocking pipelines that would pay for anything you want... Schools, Hospitals... Dildos... What the hell ever... But no, BC would rather shoot themselves in the face than support their neighbour, who pays the HOA fees for the whole community.

There just isn't even an analogy to properly conveys how f-ing stupid BC and Quebec are. They use more oil than Alberta, and yet treat the industry like it's the blight. Unreal. Simply unfathomably unreal.

The thing that really ticks me off though, is that the industry doesn't defend itself. The Alberta government is barely trying to defend the industry. There should be a campaign equal to the anti-Alberta campaign informing these morons about what they're protesting. Go ahead and protest fossil fuels, but demonizing Alberta in particular is absolutely ridiculous. You'd rather that Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela get your money, instead of your own country? What in the living F?

Why am I related to people that are so goddamned stupid? My own country is so full of stupid. It's embarrassing.

Every Canadian should read the summary of the report in the link below. It shows how TIDES has been funneling millions of dollars to either terminate or else endlessly stall projects related to the oil and gas industry in Canada.

The Tar Sands Campaign Against the Overseas Export of Canadian Oil:

Activism or Economic Sabotage?


https://fairquestions.typepad.com/fi...excerpts-2.pdf

[CaptainCrunch]

The Financial Post also had a good article on Tides, that I can't find but it pointed out that they had funneled about $300,000 to Sven Robinson's mayoral campaign.


Whoops found it


https://business.financialpost.com/o...-the-oil-sands

The campaign against Alberta’s oil sands also seems to rise out of the people, but the interesting thing is that there are very few roots under that grass. Money comes in from a small core of U.S. charitable groups. One of those groups — the U.S. Tides Foundation of California (Tides U.S.) and its Canadian counterpart have paid millions to at least 36 campaign organizations. (See list below.)

he Tides Foundation is an American charity that has given away US US$1.5-billion since 1976. For many years, the chairman of the U.S. Tides Foundation, and the vice-chairman of Tides Canada, has been Joel Solomon. Mr. Solomon, an interesting figure in his own right, also backed the election campaign of Vancouver’s Mayor Gregor Robertson to the tune of about US$330,000. But that’s another story.

Many of the grants for the “Tar Sands Campaign” are far larger than grants for other important causes. For example, a rape intervention project in Sub-Saharan Africa got US$9,000 and a project to support people with HIV in Indonesia got US$9,998. In comparison, Greenpeace got US$186,000 and the World Wildlife Fund got US$160,000 to campaign against Alberta oil.

[redforever]

The Financial Post also ran an article stating that foreign funds possibly interfered with the 2015 election.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...report-alleges

[CaptainCrunch]

Also the Leadnow group that campaigned against Harper in the last election also received funding from Tides to the tune of about $1.7 million with a million coming from Tides US.


https://fairquestions.typepad.com/re...-leadnow-.html


We talk about Russian interference in elections, but frankly the Americans are doing a great deal of interfering in out economy and our elections.

[burn_this_city]

Direct Air Capture costs would come down immensely if the facilities were scaled up. Carbon Engineering showed a cost of roughly $90/t to capture and convert to fuel. You could probably halve that cost if you built them on the scale of a mega project. It would also be an immense public works project that would provide construction employment and operations jobs for decades.

[OMG!WTF!]

My sister works at the Chateau Whistler and is in charge of trying to smooth over all the pissed off Albertans canceling their reservations. She said hundreds of people have cancelled just over xmas including a 250 person wedding and several large groups of 10 or more. Apparently you can actually get a room over xmas now.



I told her we're just doing our part. Shrinking Whistler's foot print is something we can all have a part in.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

My sister works at the Chateau Whistler and is in charge of trying to smooth over all the pissed off Albertans canceling their reservations. She said hundreds of people have cancelled just over xmas including a 250 person wedding and several large groups of 10 or more. Apparently you can actually get a room over xmas now.



I told her we're just doing our part. Shrinking Whistler's foot print is something we can all have a part in.

Yeah, I had a couple of friends of mine cancel their after Christmas vacation plans to Whistler as well, they're going to find something to do in Alberta.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Direct Air Capture costs would come down immensely if the facilities were scaled up. Carbon Engineering showed a cost of roughly $90/t to capture and convert to fuel. You could probably halve that cost if you built them on the scale of a mega project. It would also be an immense public works project that would provide construction employment and operations jobs for decades.

It looks like they need loads of fans. I wonder if you could setup a much cheaper passive arrangement in the Pincher Creek area, and other high wind regions. Let nature do the blowing. They may also be able to harness the hot air coming out of Ottawa.