The Great Flames Goalie Debate Thread

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

When it comes to Smith, sadly, some people relish seeing him get lit up.

But my point is that these unquantifiable things like “lack of positioning,” or “poor lateral movement” have a lot more to do with perceptions and expectations than actual performance. Smith struggled to begin the season, but for a couple weeks now has looked very much like the same goalie who single-handedly won games last Fall.


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But if you’re going to argue the previous 6 games count “more” than all the games before it, then you open yourself up to one bad game being a big problem if it’s his last game. You can’t go all in on recency and then disregard most recent result.

Personally I will be comfortable saying Smith is giving us average goaltending once his annual numbers are atleast close to league average. Honestly it shouldn’t be that hard given the still relatively few games he has played. A 6 game stretch just isn’t enough for me to conclude anything.

[Spinach]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Most people want to see weak goals? :-)

Most people don't even watch the NHL, much less the Flames.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I don't relish Smith letting in ####ty goals. Do I find it frustrating that he starts and find it baffling that some people can defend him constantly no matter how terrible he has performed in general both this season and last half of last season? Yes.

It's not that people defend him because they think he's had a fine season. They know overall he hasn't. They would welcome an upgrade in net if a trade for one was made. They're just looking at things with an unbiased opinion when it comes to the goalie situation.

Anybody who doesn't have a hate on for him shouldn't have much to complain about his six games prior to Wednesday. People bitched and moaned about him having too many -.900 SV% games earlier in the season and all five games he played a full game he exceeded that. That should be enough to atleast make his critics admit he's treading it the right direction and some have but others are stubborn and just want to focus on the past.

Has he let in too many bad goals this season? Yes. I was royally pissed at the fourth goal. But some of the goals that people say are bad(which seems like almost every goal) make me shake my head sometimes.

And then there's the games where he's fine but people have to bitch about how he made a certain save or because he didn't make 40+ saves that night it's no big deal. Who gives a #### how he made a save as long as he made it? Him or Rittich could be on their back all game waving their arms and legs in the air and as long as they make the save and the Flames win I'm happy.

I personally couldn't care less if mike smith succeeds or doesn't succeed as long as the flames are winning.

They are though. And no, it's not because they're bailing him out every night. In 8 of his 11 wins he's let in 2 goals or less.

I would never want the flames to lose a game just so smith doesn't start the next one

As I've mentioned before it's not about wanting the Flames to lose. It's about wanting Smith to struggle enough so that he either gets pulled and Rittich has to come in and win the game or the team has to bail him out(which hasn't had to happen nearly as much as you claim) and Peters decides to go with Rittich the next game.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

TOR.: 21 - 10 - 1, 114 GF, 89 GA
CAL.: 20 - 10 - 2, 113 GF, 89 GA
WPG: 20 - 9 - 2, 111 GF, 86 GA

After 31/32 games, those stats are as identical as you're going to get.

If we're 3rd because of goaltending, then with better goaltending we must clearly be the best of the 3 teams.

We're talking about the "Centre of the Universe" and the "Amazing Jets" here. Even if the Flames were, the media are going to hype up the other two more.

[Cinephile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

When it comes to Smith, sadly, some people relish seeing him get lit up.

But my point is that these unquantifiable things like “lack of positioning,” or “poor lateral movement” have a lot more to do with perceptions and expectations than actual performance. Smith struggled to begin the season, but for a couple weeks now has looked very much like the same goalie who single-handedly won games last Fall.


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You are utterly deluding yourself if you think that because Smith was getting Ws during his relatively good stretch of play that it was anything comparable to the play of Smith from last year - to which he was an all-star.

The last couple of weeks you have spent an inordinate amount of time defending Smith to any poster that has had any sort of criticism levied against him. Your indefatigable Smith sympathizing and the sheer amount of posts that you have dedicated to it over numerous threads is becoming unsettling. Nearly every game he lets in a bad goal. Do we need to quantify that for you for you to understand stand that? Perhaps put it in a couple charts? This is why people are questioning/calling out things like his “lack of positioning” or “poor lateral movement”. When someone questions a players heart or if he had his head in the game (happens all the time, fans and sports analysts alike do this) should we dismiss that as well because it’s unquantifiable? Tiger Woods level of play went down markedly after his affairs came to light, could there be a natural correlation there? Shame on me for even speculating, I’m not inside that mans head! God forbid. Seems like you are grasping at straws in your persistence to exculpate Smith of his bad play.

I understand that some of the posters on here appear to possess a borderline extreme bias against Smith but I believe it is not entirely unfounded. Why would so many posters on here have this shared belief? Because, simply put, as a starter he has been less than stellar and severely underwhelming. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, if you come off of an all-star season and play like Smith has done this year, people will take notice. Fans expected better, they want better. He is not playing at that expected level of play. Period.

So you can keep posting about how Smith isn’t really playing all that bad. He is, and if he continues on with this trend, prepare yourself for a whole lot more defending.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cinephile

...The last couple of weeks you have spent an inordinate amount of time defending Smith to any poster that has had any sort of criticism levied against him...

This is not at all true. My problem is with posters who are so jaded that they refuse to acknowledge moments when Smith has been fine. Despite the poor results Mike Smith has in fact p[layed some good games this season. I am happy to give him credit for those performances.

I understand that some of the posters on here appear to possess a borderline extreme bias against Smith but I believe it is not entirely unfounded.

No. Extreme bias is never acceptable. Never.

Why would so many posters on here have this shared belief?...

Because confirmation bias is a real thing that virtually everyone experiences.

So you can keep posting about how Smith isn’t really playing all that bad. He is, and if he continues on with this trend, prepare yourself for a whole lot more defending.

No. He is not. Over the full season? Yes, this year has been a disappointment. But more recently? In the past calendar month Mike Smith has posted a 0.910 SP, a 2.20 GAA and six wins in seven games. That looks fine to me.

To be clear: I remain concerned about Flames goaltending for the season, and have my doubts about how Smith and Rittich are capable of performing in the playoffs. I have no doubt that Smith is playing his final season in Calgary, and I welcome an upgrade. But for a few weeks now he has been playing fairly well—good enough for the team to keep winning. I don't see any good reason to refuse acknowledging this fact in favour of exaggerations about bad goals and "awkward" saves.

[Jeff Lebowski]

[Cinephile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No. Extreme bias is never acceptable. Never.

Let’s not degrade this into a stance on morality. No where in my post did I imply extreme bias as being acceptable. There has been multiple games where Smith has been terrible this year resulting in some posters developing their extreme biases out of that. Those biases arose out of his bad play not out of thin air. I agree that extreme biases are deplorable but no where did I mention it as being acceptable. I stated it was founded on his bad play.

No. He is not. Over the full season? Yes, this year has been a disappointment. But more recently? In the past calendar month Mike Smith has posted a 0.910 SP, a 2.20 GAA and six wins in seven games. That looks fine to me.

Of course it looks fine to you - you are cherry picking his stats from his most recent good stretch of play to confirm your bias and support your arguments that he is actually playing well. It was a short lived good stretch of play. If he can continue it for a longer sustained period, this argument will have to be revisited.

However I do see that you acknowledge that his play this season as a whole has been a disappointment and I agree. I would love to see Smith’s return to form but being 30 games into the season I can’t honestly see him doing that, in my opinion. I would love it but I can’t see it happening. I will not speculate as to whether he has been injured in some form or another throughout this season or if that contributed to his play, but rather just from what we know as fact thus far.

...I don't see any good reason to refuse acknowledging this fact in favour of exaggerations about bad goals and "awkward" saves.

Those aren’t exaggerations. Some of the goals that Smith let in this season have been god awful - absolutely no two ways about it. Trying to convince someone otherwise is simply untenable.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cinephile

...Of course it looks fine to you - you are cherry picking his stats from his most recent good stretch of play to confirm your bias and support your arguments that he is actually playing well...

So, I am cherry picking numbers from his RECENT performances to confirm my argument that he has MOST RECENTLY been playing well? How else do you propose I assess Mike Smith's RECENT play?

[Bunk]

Rittich 11-3; 2.21 GAA; .925 Sv% and solid as heck.

How long until we recognize that the solution for our future is already here?

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Rittich 11-3; 2.21 GAA; .925 Sv% and solid as heck.

How long until we recognize that the solution for our future is already here?

Well. It will be a while because there are a ton of posters here who cheer for rittich to fail so they can say a toad a so.

They would rather have rittich get pulled and smith be our starter than have rittich succeed...


It sounds just as asinine when you flip it.


Rittich is the future

[Psytic]

Looking good for sure. No need for any moves at this point. Smith will be a decent backup.

[Itse]

This comment isn't really directly related to the Great Goalie Debate, but it's goalie related so I'll put it here.

I've been impressed by how much Rittichs stick play has improved during his time here, and I think it's pretty safe to give credit to Smith for that. There's clearly been some mentoring going on there, or at the very least learning by imitation.

That's exactly what you hope happens when you have a veteran goalie with a relatively young backup. Smiths stick play is a big advantage, and Rittich picking that up is a great new tool for him.

There's going to be some growing pains and a few bad plays here and there, with Rittich being more aggressive now in playing the puck, but it's worth it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Rittich 11-3; 2.21 GAA; .925 Sv% and solid as heck.

How long until we recognize that the solution for our future is already here?

Well, he needs to show that he can keep doing it over time, 14 games does not a starter make.

However, so far so good. What I love about Rittich is how quiet and simple he is playing - just stay square to the shooter, and control rebounds.

Love the way he is playing - it is so calming for the defense.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Well. It will be a while because there are a ton of posters here who cheer for rittich to fail so they can say a toad a so.

No, there isn't. There's just alot of people who remember the hot streak Johnson went on and then went back to playing like a backup so they're trying not to get too excited in case the same happens to Rittich.

Would I love it if he played like this the whole season and made Treliving's job alot easier next summer? Of course. But it's going to take him still playing like this in February before I start believing this is more than just a hot streak.