The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I've seen kids that can't walk be taken to a chiro treatment, come home, and walk within a few days.

What is going on there?

What level of "can't walk" are we talking about? There's a big difference between someone who's wheelchair bound and someone recovering from an injury.

[Azure]

Just normal 1 or 1-1/2 year old kids who haven't fully started walking yet. His parents took him to the chiro and he came home and was walking within a day.

Not saying I believe it or anything. Just wondering what exactly is supposed to be happening there.

I suppose the obvious explanation is that the kid has pain trying to walk and therefore just chooses to not. Not sure why the chiro is the fix though.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just normal 1 or 1-1/2 year old kids who haven't fully started walking yet. His parents took him to the chiro and he came home and was walking within a day.

Not saying I believe it or anything. Just wondering what exactly is supposed to be happening there.

I suppose the obvious explanation is that the kid has pain trying to walk and therefore just chooses to not. Not sure why the chiro is the fix though.

likely a child who figured out how to walk and just happened to go to a chiropractor the previous day. correlation does not equal causality.

[cracher]

Check the fb group "prayers for Ezekiel". Certainly a different perspective than this thread. Had to put my bike helmet on because I reflexively facepalmed so many times while wading through the comments.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just normal 1 or 1-1/2 year old kids who haven't fully started walking yet. His parents took him to the chiro and he came home and was walking within a day.

Not saying I believe it or anything. Just wondering what exactly is supposed to be happening there.

I suppose the obvious explanation is that the kid has pain trying to walk and therefore just chooses to not. Not sure why the chiro is the fix though.

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

likely a child who figured out how to walk and just happened to go to a chiropractor the previous day. correlation does not equal causality.

Yeah I don't get this. ARe you saying that the kid wasn't walking and then went to chiro and magically started walking after that? Because when I eat a popsicle its hot outside, so....I'm going to go and eat a popsicle .

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by cracher

Check the fb group "prayers for Ezekiel". Certainly a different perspective than this thread. Had to put my bike helmet on because I reflexively facepalmed so many times while wading through the comments.

Yeah, that's a full-on clownshow.

[bigtmac19]

I know a couple who don't vaccinate and have taken their children to Chiropractors since infancy. They see a Naturopath for vaccines. . I don't know if their children have ever seen an actual physician. These are well educated people. It makes me crazy.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I've seen kids that can't walk be taken to a chiro treatment, come home, and walk within a few days.

What is going on there?

Benny Hinn?

[PepsiFree]

Anyone who pretends their industry is an acceptable equivalent to medical professionals is a bad person. No buts.

[burn_this_city]

People on that fb group just don't get it. "My heart breaks for this family. I will write, call or do whatever to support these parents. How are our rights being being stripped away to know what's best for our children? This is seriously corrupt"

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

People on that fb group just don't get it. "My heart breaks for this family. I will write, call or do whatever to support these parents. How are our rights being being stripped away to know what's best for our children? This is seriously corrupt"

Stripped rights. Corrupt. Throw in the word subsidy and you'd have the trifecta of phrases people use without any idea what they mean.

I wish there were some way this also came down on the people who fill others heads with nonsense to the point where a kid dies.

[Regorium]

I can't believe there are such anti-intellectuals in this world. Oh well. I'm glad these parents were punished for it through the law.

Can't help but feel bad for not only Ezekiel, but the other surviving kids. To grow up in such an environment means that they really don't have much of a chance at actual success. Hopefully their family made enough money off other fools to provide for them.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by cracher

Check the fb group "prayers for Ezekiel". Certainly a different perspective than this thread. Had to put my bike helmet on because I reflexively facepalmed so many times while wading through the comments.

I found that this afternoon and had to close the computer and walk away. Just unbelievable.

[blueski]

What boggles my mind is that health care in Canada is free, yet all these homeogarbage remedies cost hundreds and maybe thousands when added up.

And yeah some work, but if my kids are sick and not getting better, we google the symptoms and try to diagnose and am either on the phone with our doc or health link about the need to take them for a visit to the doc or ER. And yeah we error on the side of caution and make too many visits. But I don't give a rats ass and I remain un-apologetic.

I think one of the things parents can do for their kids is to try to help them develop a good relationship with a doctor and the medical system in Canada in general. Really teach them how to navigate it. Regular visits for them every year for checkups, encourage them to ask questions when they are young, show them by example that you are going to the doctor too, tell them about your checkups and what you are doing with advice that your doctor has given and so on. I don't want them to be afraid of the doc, afraid of asking questions and they've even seen us question a new doc and drive two hours to get a second opinion when we felt it was important enough.

Teaching them about the scientific method and how drug trials and drug patents work and big pharma isn't a bad idea when they get older. At some point I'll tell them about Steve Jobs too.

[morgin]

Reading through the Facebook page (which was apparently set up by the family) and the truther blog linked on that page killed off any lingering sympathy I had for the parents. Zero shame in hawking for donations and using their kid's death as a platform for their anti-medicine, anti-government, religious full on tinfoil hat nonsense. It's everyone else's fault this happened (sure don't have a problem with medicine when you can blame the ambulance for not being well enough equipped, notwithstanding it was a few days too late that you called?) absolutely disgusting and disheartening to see not only what the parents apparent belief system is, but that there are so many people posting in support.

[Minnie]

The naturopath is facing investigation now. That would be a very very good thing except for the fact that she'll be investigated by the "College" of Naturopathic "Doctors" who weren't inclined to investigate until receiving external pressure.

Link

Alberta regulators say they will investigate a local naturopath and her role in the troubling case of a toddler who died of meningitis, after a group of doctors from across Canada urged them to take action.

Capping a six-week trial that put alternative health care generally on the hot seat, a jury convicted Ezekiel Stephan’s parents Tuesday of failing to provide the necessities of life. David and Collet Stephan had treated the 19-month-old with non-medical, natural therapies for days before his March 2012 passing.

The office of naturopath Tracey Tannis sold Ezekiel’s mother an Echinacea tincture hours before the boy was taken to hospital near death, though it is unclear if she actually met the family.

The College of Naturopathic Doctors of Alberta said it would treat the open letter signed by the 43 physicians as a complaint and launch an investigation.

“I will be … gathering information about Dr. Tannis’s involvement in this matter,” said Kristen Tanaka, the college’s complaints director, in a reply to Dr. Michelle Cohen, the Brighton, Ont., family physician who drafted the original letter.

Cohen provided a copy of the college’s response to the National Post.

Her own letter, signed by fellow family doctors, at least one infectious-disease physician and other specialists from Ontario to British Columbia, said the college had a duty to look into Tannis’s role.

“By any objective measure of a healthcare professional licensed to care for children, Dr. Tannis did not meet the standard of care,” the letter charges.

“Albertans … expect that any regulated health professional using the designation ‘Dr.’ would not recommend a treatment for a child without first physically examining them.”

Cohen said she felt driven to request an investigation because “it just seemed there was a real noticeable silence” from the naturopathic college.

There is no indication the regulator had planned any kind of investigation before receiving the doctors’ letter.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

I know a couple who don't vaccinate and have taken their children to Chiropractors since infancy. They see a Naturopath for vaccines. . I don't know if their children have ever seen an actual physician. These are well educated people. It makes me crazy.

I hope they have followed this story, people can do what they want with their own body but when they use children as guinea pigs they should be shot and pissed on.

And naturopaths are complete bunk when it comes to illness other than a minor deficiency.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by T@T

I hope they have followed this story, people can do what they want with their own body but when they use children as guinea pigs they should be shot and pissed on.

And naturopaths are complete bunk when it comes to illness other than a minor deficiency.

I'm sure they have not, and if they did, probably would not make a difference. They are right and everyone else is wrong.

[peter12]

How are naturopaths good at solving anything? What is a minor deficiency? A cold?

[killer_carlson]

I saw a comment in a newspaper on this story (I apologize I do not recall which one) and it essentially said that those who believe in the homeopath solutions are akin to being devout religious followers.

So for them a medical doctor isn't so much an option, instead it's the same as fundamentally ignoring your religion.

I thought it was an interesting nuance to the discussion.