If Wayne Gretzky played today, is he better than Sid? Is 99 the GOAT?

[Caged Great]

Lemieux was amazing when he was coming back into the league after his injury. He was better than literally all the star players at the time.

Crosby is about the level of those star players like Sakic Forsberg and Yzerman.

Gretzky and Lemieux were a clear tier above them.

[Steve Bozek]

Look at how much better Gretzky was than all of the players who were his contemporaries. That’s the only way to compare players of different eras. As good as Crosby is, his scoring was never that far above the nearest competition. Crosby plays a more physical game than Gretzky did, but Gretzky dominated play whenever he was on the ice.

[Finger Cookin]

I still think that Gretzky had an innate talent/ability/gift/whateveryouwannacallit that would place him ahead of his peers who've received the same teaching and coaching as him.

[locsofblu]

Ffs yes of course he would be.

[Max Cow Disease]

There are certainly two sides to the whole thing. Gretzky definitely benefitted from playing in an era where guys were skating over the red line and blasting slapshots past goalies from center ice, but it's hard to say. Would Gretzky even make it to the NHL today? It seems like the path to the pros is far more regimented -and not to mention expensive- than it's ever been. Wayne seemed to have a more "organic" path that started with playing on the backyard rink, and gradually working his way up, rather than having his parents pay thousands to shove him through some hockey school/academy.

It's not fair to compare by simply envisioning modern day Crosby playing in the 80's though. As has been said, his path to the NHL would have been entirely different back then, and his access to training, equipment, nutrition etc. wouldn't be the same. For all we know, Crosby would have been a smoking alcoholic with a beer gut back in the 80's.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its a weird question to debate

I don't think that Gretzky was physicallly gifted.

...

but he had a peerless vision of the ice and a idiot savants ability to understand where the open spots on the ice were and where the puck and players were going. His vision was like one of us playing a hockey video game where your viewing the whole ice surface from the press box.

I believe he would be a 100 to 110 point player in this era, the coaches are too good and the players can all for the most part skate, and they play a system and play it well.

Realistically there are no open spaces for the type of hockey that Gretzky needed to score 200 points + a year.

This is why Gretzky would probably still be able to dominate in today's game though. His play was all built on his Hockey IQ and skill, not any "physical attributes". He wasn't just faster and in better shape than a bunch of slower/smaller guys but just was that much smarter than everyone else.

He was smart enough to find open space and control play no matter the era. It probably wouldn't be 200 point seasons anymore just because the goaltending / coaching is so much better, but I wouldn't be shocked if he put up 150 points in the current era.

In 97/98, in the heart of the dead puck era, with improved goaltending and coaching, he put up 90 points as a 37/38 year old which was good enough for 3rd in league scoring.

IMO he would still be head and shoulders above the rest of the league right now. Same thing with Mario.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dash_pinched

Gretzky would be fun to watch especially in 3-on-3 OT. Of course, if Marc Crawford was behind the bench, he wouldn't use him in the shootout.

/Yup, still bitter.

Gretzky was quite poor on breakaways.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Max Cow Disease

There are certainly two sides to the whole thing. Gretzky definitely benefitted from playing in an era where guys were skating over the red line and blasting slapshots past goalies from center ice, but it's hard to say. Would Gretzky even make it to the NHL today? It seems like the path to the pros is far more regimented -and not to mention expensive- than it's ever been. Wayne seemed to have a more "organic" path that started with playing on the backyard rink, and gradually working his way up, rather than having his parents pay thousands to shove him through some hockey school/academy.

It's not fair to compare by simply envisioning modern day Crosby playing in the 80's though. As has been said, his path to the NHL would have been entirely different back then, and his access to training, equipment, nutrition etc. wouldn't be the same. For all we know, Crosby would have been a smoking alcoholic with a beer gut back in the 80's.

To be fair the question isn't about which path they took. Gretzky did things on the ice way ahead of his time. The other night I watched Johnny entering the offensive zone ahead of everyone but on a dime slowed down and everyone passed him then passed it to the open player coming in. This was very Gretzky like, in that he could do things or see the play unfold before he got there. Banking pucks off goalies, cross ice passes where the goalie couldn't move. Gretzky saw and did things on another level.

[corporatejay]

Sorry, is the question if you just dropped him in from the 80s?

So assume someone goes back in time, takes Gretzky and drops him into today?

or

Assume he was born in 1995 and had all the training, coaching etc... with his natural raw talent?

Please clarify.

[CliffFletcher]

Yes, the league was weaker in the 80s. But all the star players in the NHL lined up against plug defencemen and 5'8" goalies who couldn't drop to a butterfly, and they didn't all put up 200 points. Gretzky was still head a shoulders above the rest of the best players in the league. Staying healthy and consistent also has to count for something.

Having said that, I'd still take Lemieux in his prime in a Cup Final game 7.

[jonkaupp]

I mean considering Lemieux was a ppg player pretty much right until he retired in the lowest scoring era of hockey ever, and Gretzky was his equal/maybe better, I think this argument is pretty silly. Love Crosby but hes not those guys.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Locke

In the 80s. Currently players are taught and coached to see the game at least as well if not better.

Seriously, go and watch some of those games. They are grim.

That’s the problem with comparing different eras. If people are now being trained to think the game like Gretzky, you can’t rule out the probability that if Gretzky was developing in this era, he would still take it to another level above the rest.

[jammies]

You can't objectively prove anything in this regard, so we might as well go with my expert opinion that Gretzky is the suckiest of the sucks, and would suck just as much if he were playing today instead of being retired.

[GioforPM]

His whining would be just as good.

[DJones]

People act like he played in a different league haha. He dominated in his mid 30s against players that everyone considers modern era.

He was better than Jagr, who dominated the modern era until he was 35.

He would be elite on 80's skates, with a wooden stick while smoking and drinking pop between periods. With modern equipment and training he'd make Gaudreau look like a chump.

[Scorch]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

That’s the problem with comparing different eras. If people are now being trained to think the game like Gretzky, you can’t rule out the probability that if Gretzky was developing in this era, he would still take it to another level above the rest.

This was what I was thinking too.
Every player who was going through the system in the late 90’s and later were learning after Gretzky’s elevation of the game. His Vision, playmaking, strategies based off his Hockey IQ.

If Gretzky never played in the NHL until today, the game as a whole wouldn’t be as good as it would be now and Imo, Gretzky would dominate

[GreenLantern2814]

If Wayne Gretzky breaks into the league today, he still has Wayne Gretzky's brain. He has the benefit of modern training and technology. He has a composite one piece instead of an Easton aluminum two piece.

His last year in the league, 1999, Gretzky still had 62 points in 70 games as an old man - the year before he had 90.

An early-mid 20s Gretzky is the best player in the game. The question would be framed 'Is Sid better than Wayne?".

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Lemieux was amazing when he was coming back into the league after his injury. He was better than literally all the star players at the time.

Crosby is about the level of those star players like Sakic Forsberg and Yzerman.

Gretzky and Lemieux were a clear tier above them.

I'd have Crosby above that tier of player, honestly. To me, a Sakic/Yzerman are on the level of Kopitar/Getzlaf/Stamkos. Star players, franchise players, can absolutely win you cups.

Crosby has been considered the best in the game for almost all of his career. Since he's come back from his injuries, there's no credible case to be made that any player in the world is as good. And his last two seasons have been as impressive as anything any pro hockey player has ever done.

[Caged Great]

Gretzky and Lemieux would have scored 160-180 points in today's NHL in their prime.

Not as good of heights as they reached, but absolutely demolishing everyone else.

The talent level is simply not the same. Training can only do so much.

That season Lemieux came back, he was on pace for 145 points and over 110 the following seasons. In 00-01, only Jagr and Sakic had 100+ at 121 and 118 respectively. Those guys were in their prime as Crosby is now and he destroyed the pair. He was on pace for 66 goals that year. Only 3 had more than 45.

It was crazy.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I'd have Crosby above that tier of player, honestly. To me, a Sakic/Yzerman are on the level of Kopitar/Getzlaf/Stamkos. Star players, franchise players, can absolutely win you cups.

Crosby has been considered the best in the game for almost all of his career. Since he's come back from his injuries, there's no credible case to be made that any player in the world is as good. And his last two seasons have been as impressive as anything any pro hockey player has ever done.

I agree that nobody else is as good, although McDavid and Matthews are putting up a case for being in that conversation.

The whole NHL though is lacking in that upper tier of talent. There is no generational player right now. There is no Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Hasek, Roy or Dryden. That's not a slight towards anyone. They are supremely talented, but not quite as much as those others.