Lion Air Flight JT-610 crashes in the Java sea

[Snuffleupagus]

51 minutes into flight, the 737 max had 178 people on board. no word if anyone survived.

As far as I know this is the first "max" to crash.



Lion Air crash

[FlamesAddiction]

The sudden acceleration at the same time as the sudden drop in altitude does not sound good for finding any potential survivors.

[Snuffleupagus]

There was some sort of problem 2 minutes into the flight but not a word from the crew to the tower. no mayday, nothing. they should find the boxes to the aircraft though as it went down in only 100 feet of water.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

There was some sort of problem 2 minutes into the flight but not a word from the crew to the tower. no mayday, nothing. they should find the boxes to the aircraft though as it went down in only 100 feet of water.

The Aviation Herald is reporting that there was at least one call to return to Jakarta:

Indonesia's KNKT (aka NTSC) reported the crew requested to return to Jakarta shortly after takeoff, when the aircraft climbed through 2000-3000 feet MSL about 3 minutes after takeoff, the request was granted by ATC.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724&opt=1

[Textcritic]

I am more than a little freaked out about flying in and around SE Asia.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am more than a little freaked out about flying in and around SE Asia.

Just wait until you get in a car or ferry in those areas. You will quickly learn to appreciate flying even if it is a bit sketchy there.

[Tsawwassen]

Now that more details of the Lion Air crash are coming out, it is worthwhile to bump this thread and add new links.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/20/lion-air-pilots-were-looking-at-handbook-when-plane-crashed

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/world/asia/lion-air-crash-families-lawsuits.html

[Tsawwassen]

"Three months after the Lion Air plane her husband was piloting plunged into the sea, Garima Sethi sat with senior officials at the Indonesian carrier in January and urged them - again - to ground the Boeing 737 Max 8."

https://www.news18.com/news/auto/wid...s-2084797.html
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/nobo...oubles-2015801

[Northendzone]

regardless of the training, it is hard to imagine having the focus to read a manual as the plane is heading towards the earth/water.

Originally Posted by Tsawwassen

Now that more details of the Lion Air crash are coming out, it is worthwhile to bump this thread and add new links.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/20/lion-air-pilots-were-looking-at-handbook-when-plane-crashed

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/world/asia/lion-air-crash-families-lawsuits.html

[Tsawwassen]

"Accident investigators in Indonesia, home of Lion Air, and the U.S., where Boeing Co., the plane’s manufacturer, is based, have been examining the work that a Florida repair shop previously performed on the so-called angle-of-attack sensor, according to briefing documents prepared for Indonesia’s parliament."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-02/faulty-737-sensor-from-lion-air-crash-linked-to-u-s-repair-shop

[Tsawwassen]

Indonesian Report Blames Faulty Boeing Design and Lion Air Staff
https://interestingengineering.com/i...lion-air-staff
https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../28/546726.htm

[Wormius]

So I am confused about the wording about the wanring light:

The 737 MAX has a warning light that would have shown that the faulty sensor was disagreeing with the working sensor on the other side of the aircraft's nose. But a software bug meant that the warning light was working only if Lion Air has purchased a package of equipment Boeing sold only as an option.

Is that to say that there was a warning indicator on the plane, but it wasn't doing anything, i.e. appearing that there was no disagreement between the two sensors pilots would assume everything was in order - or the warning indicator light just physically wasn't there, so the pilots might have suspected something was wrong but without the warning light would be unsure.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Wormius

So I am confused about the wording about the wanring light:





Is that to say that there was a warning indicator on the plane, but it wasn't doing anything, i.e. appearing that there was no disagreement between the two sensors pilots would assume everything was in order - or the warning indicator light just physically wasn't there, so the pilots might have suspected something was wrong but without the warning light would be unsure.

There are 2 sensors available, but the second one was being sold as an option and most airlines didn't buy it. That second sensor is there for redundancy.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Wormius

So I am confused about the wording about the wanring light:





Is that to say that there was a warning indicator on the plane, but it wasn't doing anything, i.e. appearing that there was no disagreement between the two sensors pilots would assume everything was in order - or the warning indicator light just physically wasn't there, so the pilots might have suspected something was wrong but without the warning light would be unsure.

I believe the Angle Of Attack disagree indicator (which would illuminate when there was enough of a difference between the 2 sides) would only illuminate if the AOA indicator (a gauge that shows the AOA) was purchased.

I think the biggest issue for me is not having any redundancy for MCAS. It should never have been designed to use AOA from one side only. Modern airline systems are all about redundancy.

[Ryan Coke]

All the Max’s have 2 AOA’s, but not all of them have an AOA disagree indication, and the MCAS didn’t use data from the #2 AOA.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

All the Max’s have 2 AOA’s, but not all of them have an AOA disagree indication, and the MCAS didn’t use data from the #2 AOA.

Yes that appears this is correct which is ridiculous in itself but where does the data go from the #2 angle of attack sensor? Is it just a dud put there to fill a hole in the fuse?

Also, for about 10 years now I wondered why the AOAS is still so crude? It's not much more than a weather vane. you would think with today's technology they could make one that didn't have to be outside in the elements.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Yes that appears this is correct which is ridiculous in itself but where does the data go from the #2 angle of attack sensor? Is it just a dud put there to fill a hole in the fuse?

Also, for about 10 years now I wondered why the AOAS is still so crude? It's not much more than a weather vane. you would think with today's technology they could make one that didn't have to be outside in the elements.

The difficulty is making it independent of inertia. Everything inside the plane would be relying on another instrument to calculate angle of attack.

Independence and direct measurement are some of the key rules when designing instrumented safety systems.

[Huntingwhale]

Jesus, saw this bump and post #1 and thought another boeing jet had gone down.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Yes that appears this is correct which is ridiculous in itself but where does the data go from the #2 angle of attack sensor? Is it just a dud put there to fill a hole in the fuse?

Both AOA’s provide info to the flight data computers, but not to the MCAS system specifically.

[Reaper]

I know they won't be punished for this but Boeing needs to be punished for attempting to pass a 737 Max 8 as not being fundamentally different to fly than a standard 737. They changed the engines and as a result had to implement software to avoid having to certify the 737 Max 8 as a new aircraft. They intentionally deceived the FAA but I guess that counts for nothing.