2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Icon

Monahan, Tkachuk, 1st for Eichel and Reinhart is interesting. Not sure who says no.

)

The proposed trade was Eichel for Tkachuk, Zary and a 1st.

So you are suggesting that Monny’s value equates to Reinhardt and Zary.

That won’t happen.


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[timbit]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Not sure if this is considered a hot take or not, but I don’t see Gio or Tkachuk moving this offseason. I don’t think people know Darryl if think he’s going to be ok giving up his #1 defenseman right now. Darryl has actually stated that Gio is the team’s best defenseman too. So I don’t think there’s a chance Gio moves. Darryl is all about winning, he doesn’t give a squat about age. So I could very well see his 4th favorite defenseman Noah Hanifin being moved instead.

I think in the end, Matthew Tkachuk stays as well because his line has a ton of chemistry right now and I’m not sure breaking up one good line to maybe build 2 lines is a good idea. What happens if no one can effectively replace Tkachuk and the Flames end up with 2 inconsistent top lines?

I love the idea of adding Jack Eichel, but not at the expense of breaking up an already functionally elite line because isn’t that point of adding Jack Eichel? The hope that he can help create an elite line? To break up an already elite line just to create another type of elite line seems counterproductive. I’d honestly rather take a lesser center and try to build a strong second line while keeping Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk together.

Elite?

When the team was out of the playoffs?

Pardon for the skepticism.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by timbit

Elite?

When the team was out of the playoffs?

Pardon for the skepticism.

Think they’ve been together for 16 games already or roughly 30% of the season and they’ve been the team’s driving force for almost every one of those games. When they were first put together, those games meant something too. They were must win games at the time especially against Montreal. Only the last few games have meant nothing.

I just think everyone needs to look at the end goal when considering adding an elite #1 center. It’s about creating an elite line, which I think we already have.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by keenan87

What about:
Tkachuk, Zary, 1st for Eichel

Gaudreau for a package of prospects and picks

Sign Taylor Hall

Hopefully Backlund can be picked up by Seattle

Sign Derek Ryan to play behind Eichel and Lindholm

Trade Monahan for a winger or play him on the wing

...The Hall and Eichel experiment didn't work at all in Buffalo but I think there are many reasons for why Buffalo is a trainwreck.

I would certainly be in for this or imagine the Flames could sign Landeskog? Get enough Swedes pulling the rope perhaps he would consider it?

I would be all for landing a high end free agent and getting a futures package for Gaudreau but if this team gets Eichel it almost certainly costs Tkachuk and they better have a high end wing man for Jack. Johnny makes the most sense but if you could sign a Landeskog or Hall that opens up the possibility to flip Gaudreau

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Think they’ve been together for 16 games already or roughly 30% of the season and they’ve been the team’s driving force for almost every one of those games. When they were first put together, those games meant something too. They were must win games at the time especially against Montreal. Only the last few games have meant nothing.

I just think everyone needs to look at the end goal when considering adding an elite #1 center. It’s about creating an elite line, which I think we already have.

Were they elite in those must win games?

Nope!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timbit

Were they elite in those must win games?

Nope!

They were good against Montreal in a couple games but not the last one. The 3 recent games against Winnipeg and Edmonton - not so much. But they sure lit it up against Ottawa and Vancouver.

[Sec214]

If chucky isn't willing to sign a long term deal in Calgary for around ~8M/8, I think you flip him if its jack Eichel. If he's after money, Buffalo will back up the truck if the Eichel Contract is gone, He's also American. Easy to sell Chucky vs Chucky Tickets in the same division.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'd be fine doing multiple 1st if they were protected and conditional to gp/performance:

2022 1st - top 3 protected if Eichel (1) plays 60+ games at (2) PPG or greater that season.
becomes a 2nd if only 1 of the above is met
becomes a 3rd if neither of the above are met


I'd include up to three of those. Added bonus is that the picks are locked down and can't be traded away!!!!

LOL GL...why would they do that when other teams are are willing to pony up

[powderjunkie]

Considering the question marks with his health/surgery, any team acquiring Eichel shouldn't be worried about competing next year. It's the following 4 years.

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

And it was an extremely short sighted decision. First of all, Brian Elliott had one season left on his contract. Secondly, the Flames were rebuilding to an extent, so giving up the 35th pick in a deep draft for 1 year of Elliott is straight foolishness. Thirdly, Brian Elliott sucks. His catching glove has a giant hole in it and the only reason why he was any good was because of the Blue’s stifling defensive play. Very poor pro scouting from his team. It honestly would’ve been more prudent to bring back an injured Karri Ramo to compete with Chad Johnson. I actually think I hate the Elliott trade almost as much as I do the Hamonic trade.

I do hate the BE trade more. It was earlier in the rebuild, for a voodoo position where there were some decent/uounger UFA's available. And much harder to recover assets if they failed that year, which was distinctly possible.


Obviously there is a ton to hate about the Hamonic trade, but it was a harder to slot to fill. Doing both Stone and Hamonic is what makes it particularly stupid to me (why are you paying a premium to save money on 2RD if you'd going to overpay 3RD).

Quincey (31 yo) 1x1.25, Hainsey 2x3M, Girardi 2x3M, Daley 3x3.166 (33-36 yo). Schultz and Shattenkirk signed big deals.

Of course, using Brodie on the RD would have left an easier to fill slot at 2LD to pair with Hamilton...though the UFA crop wasn't great there, either (Hunwick, Del Zotto, Alzner, Oduya).

I wonder if an alternate universe where we sign Alzner instead of trading for Hamonic is better, or worse?

[ForeverFlameFan]

Put yourself in Buffalo’s shoes. Does Tkachuk even want to be there long term? Probably not.

You’re going to need a third party team involved, a team like the Blues, who could offer Kyrou + 2022 1st + Dunn for Tkachuk. If I am the Sabres GM I don’t want to trade Eichel for a player that may not be mine in 2 years.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

LOL GL...why would they do that when other teams are are willing to pony up

We don't know what other teams are willing to do. If teams offer blue-chip prospects, obviously BUF will lean that direction.


Certainly there will be a ton of tire-kickers on Eichel, I don't know that teams are going to blow their brains out on Eichel now with so much uncertainty in the next 14 months. 2022 will be a landscape changing off-season.

For a team like NYR or LAK who are looking to accelerate now, why wouldn't they keep the cap flexibility to go big game hunting in UFA? Even if they don't land a Krrejci or Landeskog or Hamilton, they at least drive the price up for a competitor. Even if Eichel goes somewhere else, they could still cash-in their stockpile of prospects for other quality player(s).

Unless it becomes clear that JE will be back to his old self this fall, I don't think anyone goes that nuts.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

We don't know what other teams are willing to do. If teams offer blue-chip prospects, obviously BUF will lean that direction.


Certainly there will be a ton of tire-kickers on Eichel, I don't know that teams are going to blow their brains out on Eichel now with so much uncertainty in the next 14 months. 2022 will be a landscape changing off-season.

For a team like NYR or LAK who are looking to accelerate now, why wouldn't they keep the cap flexibility to go big game hunting in UFA? Even if they don't land a Krrejci or Landeskog or Hamilton, they at least drive the price up for a competitor. Even if Eichel goes somewhere else, they could still cash-in their stockpile of prospects for other quality player(s).

Unless it becomes clear that JE will be back to his old self this fall, I don't think anyone goes that nuts.

I think its a fair assumption protected 1sts that could turn into 3rds won't be the best offer they get

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Think they’ve been together for 16 games already or roughly 30% of the season and they’ve been the team’s driving force for almost every one of those games.

The team stacked its three best forwards on one line. Of course they were the team's driving force.

Good teams don't need stack their three best forwards on one line.

I just think everyone needs to look at the end goal when considering adding an elite #1 center. It’s about creating an elite line, which I think we already have.

A line with two elite wingers and a complementary center like Lindholm is fundamentally flawed because when checking gets tight against contending teams, you need more gamebreaking skill from the center position, which a guy like Lindholm (or Monahan, or Backlund) cannot provide.

Slotting players properly is what it's about. The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line has Lindholm slotted improperly.

You're better off even with a top six of

Mangiapane-Eichel-?
Gaudreau-Backlund-Tkachuk

because Eichel's line will be getting the top attention.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The team stacked its three best forwards on one line. Of course they were the team's driving force.

Good teams don't need stack their three best forwards on one line.




A line with two elite wingers and a complementary center like Lindholm is fundamentally flawed because when checking gets tight against contending teams, you need more gamebreaking skill from the center position, which a guy like Lindholm (or Monahan, or Backlund) cannot provide.

Slotting players properly is what it's about. The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line has Lindholm slotted improperly.

You're better off even with a top six of

Mangiapane-Eichel-?
Gaudreau-Backlund-Tkachuk

because Eichel's line will be getting the top attention.

Boston?
Colorado?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think its a fair assumption protected 1sts that could turn into 3rds won't be the best offer they get

I'm not suggesting it's the entirety of the deal. I'd rather add 2-3 protected/conditional 1sts than one unprotected in 2022 or 2023.

For the BUF the choice might be:

Very Good young player + prospect + 1st (that might be likely to be in the 20s...though it would really depend on the team)

vs.

Very Good young player + prospect + multiple cond. picks


BUF could add some downside conditions, too. If the [conditions are met and] the 1st rd. pick is #17-24, the Sabres also get our 3rd. If the pick is #25-32, they also get our 2nd.

Mostly though, I was being a bit tongue in cheek that I'd like all of our future picks to be untradable (unless Eichel made it worthwhile).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by timbit

Were they elite in those must win games?

Nope!

I would say yes. FYI, top lines don’t score every single game, generally speaking, they’re shut out 30%-40% of the games they play. But if you look at the game logs, that line basically produced a goal in every single game since their inception minus one game (Winnipeg shutout) which is pretty remarkable because they’re also facing the opposition’s top shutdown lines.

The honest truth is, if the line received any help whatsoever, they would still be vying for the final playoff position.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The team stacked its three best forwards on one line. Of course they were the team's driving force.

Good teams don't need stack their three best forwards on one line.




A line with two elite wingers and a complementary center like Lindholm is fundamentally flawed because when checking gets tight against contending teams, you need more gamebreaking skill from the center position, which a guy like Lindholm (or Monahan, or Backlund) cannot provide.

Slotting players properly is what it's about. The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line has Lindholm slotted improperly.

You're better off even with a top six of

Mangiapane-Eichel-?
Gaudreau-Backlund-Tkachuk

because Eichel's line will be getting the top attention.

I literally saw Austone Matthews-Mitch Marner-John Tavares on 1 line quite a few times 5 on 5. That’s a $34M dollar line. The Oilers also stack McDavid and Draisaitl constantly. Sometimes when the game gets stuck in muck, you need your best guys together to gain traction and that’s what the new top line does for the Flames, they create traction, spend all kinds of time in the offensive zone and help set up other lines for success.

Lindholm is also not a complimentary center. He may not be elite at manufacturing offense out of thin air, but he has a great one timer and has strong puck skills. But the most important thing he does is what he does away from the puck. He gives that line the ability to check for chances, the ability to defend less and is no slouch either in transition and on the cycle. That’s what makes this line dangerous, they can score in many different ways.

As long as someone can distribute up the middle effectively like say Gaudreau, then that line should be fine in transition. But in order for that to happen. Gaudreau needs Matthew Tkachuk to buy time and space for him and he needs Lindholm to consistently drive through the middle taking a defensemen with him.
That allows Gaudreau to back up the defensemen and opens up his ability to go east-west.

Like I said, I’d like Eichel. But not at the expense of the new top line. It’s far too risky to break the current line up for an injury prone center like Eichel. This team wouldn’t have the luxury of depth to win games when Eichel inevitably goes down.

[GioforPM]

^^ Toronto and Edmonton are not elite teams. Edmonton isn’t even good. And Toronto would only put Tavares with Matthews in emergency situations (heck, even Edmonton tries not to - but fails). In fact Toronto hasn’t used Tavares with Matthews and Marner this year. Last year Tavares was with those guys a whopping 3% of his time (and they never scored).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^ Toronto and Edmonton are not elite teams. Edmonton isn’t even good. And Toronto would only put Tavares with Matthews in emergency situations (heck, even Edmonton tries not to - but fails). In fact Toronto hasn’t used Tavares with Matthews and Marner this year. Last year Tavares was with those guys a whopping 3% of his time (and they never scored).

Well considering I’ve only watched North division games this season, those are the teams that came to mind. Plus, nobody said anything about elite teams. We were talking about good teams. Elite teams don’t have the kind of awful depth the Flames have. The type of pretend depth that makes them think they can create 3 random forward pairings, attach them with league minimum scrubs to create a powerhouse line up.

All I’m trying to get at is the Flames have found themselves an excellent top scoring line and to break it up to acquire an oft injured center that can maybe create an elite line himself sounds counter productive. Like, are the Flames just trying to trade for an elite #1 center so they have an elite #1 center or is the goal to ultimately find themselves a functional top scoring line.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well considering I’ve only watched North division games this season, those are the teams that came to mind. Plus, nobody said anything about elite teams. We were talking about good teams. Elite teams don’t have the kind of awful depth the Flames have. The type of pretend depth that makes them think they can create 3 random forward pairings, attach them with league minimum scrubs to create a powerhouse line up.

All I’m trying to get at is the Flames have found themselves an excellent top scoring line and to break it up to acquire an oft injured center that can maybe create an elite line himself sounds counter productive. Like, are the Flames just trying to trade for an elite #1 center so they have an elite #1 center or is the goal to ultimately find themselves a functional top scoring line.

Well, maybe make your argument without making up facts, like Toronto playing Tavares on Matthews’ line.

The Lindholm line has been pretty good, but I’m sure not banking on them. They had new line energy all right, and then lit it up even more in garbage time. Is it sustainable? I recall when people here called Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm the best line in hockey.

IMO Lindholm is a lower tier 1C. A 2C on any good team. Gaudreau is a top line guy on most teams, but not the centrepiece, which is OK for a LW. Tkachuk is a second line player because of his limited skating.