City looking to restart talks on new Flames’ arena

[kurwamac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by surferguy

Please don’t bring that type of sensible discussion into this thread. The use of facts and logic has no place here. This thread is about taking a topic rehashed multiple times and getting out your personal views and digs on some members of city council.

So please cast some shade on Nenshi or GTFO

and you think a sarcastic comment like that adds value to this thread? It's like you're trying to provoke an argument & take the thread off topic = trolling.

[zamler]

My post is the best.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

When you gold plate everything and pay everybody on staff $28/hour +(https://ca.indeed.com/jobs?q=city+of...=Calgary%2C+AB), it shouldn't be surprising that eventually you don't have enough left over to cover other capital projects. Our beautiful library, bridges etc. crowded out money that could have been used for additional things. It's a value judgement as to whether it's worth it or not, but if ultimately the arena deal can't get done because the city's broke, then it's another discussion point.

Yeah, #### having a middle class!

The city isn't broke. The city isn't allowed to run deficits. How could it possibly be broke? They have to pay for all of these things, and thus they prioritize.

I'm not a city worker. But why do you think you think paying salaries for 13,000 people is remotely burdensome? 60% of those salaries are between $50K and $100K. And they're the enemy?

Are we going to fire all the Youth Employment Counsellors making $60 grand a year to fund an arena?

No. No we're not. I don't know if you read the news, but it's tough to find a city on this planet with better local government than Calgary. They're good in a crisis. They don't have oodles of debt. Literally every new road that's been built in the last fifteen years is awesome. They don't cower to billionaires. The fire department works.

Yeah, they're insane with the photo radar. They abuse the #### out of that power. But oh my god can things be a lot worse.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Does he say who these private investors are with 3 billion to spend?

Well it comes from developers, but it's kind of misleading because it's about being 'built-out' and while they know what that looks like and how much money would need to be invested to get there, it's not like this is a project you just say "go" and the builders move in and are in a race to get everything finished. The East Village isn't even built out yet and this is more the continuation of that. You're probably not looking at being built out for another decade or so even if projects get going soon. There are timelines and ROIs to be considered, but now that CMLC is running things instead of the Stampede, the likelihood of actually getting going with it is much, much higher.

[RM14]

He said about 20 years.... hosting the olympics would accelerated at that neighborhood for sure. It'll be twice as long now.

[lambeburger]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

When you gold plate everything and pay everybody on staff $28/hour +(https://ca.indeed.com/jobs?q=city+of...=Calgary%2C+AB), it shouldn't be surprising that eventually you don't have enough left over to cover other capital projects. Our beautiful library, bridges etc. crowded out money that could have been used for additional things. It's a value judgement as to whether it's worth it or not, but if ultimately the arena deal can't get done because the city's broke, then it's another discussion point.

Only this city would pay 40 bucks an hour to a person working in an unionized call centre while claiming that there are no efficiencies that can possibly be made.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by kurwamac

Quote:




and you think a sarcastic comment like that adds value to this thread? It's like you're trying to provoke an argument & take the thread off topic = trolling.

You really should thicken your skin with respect to trolling.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Yeah, #### having a middle class!

The city isn't broke. The city isn't allowed to run deficits. How could it possibly be broke? They have to pay for all of these things, and thus they prioritize.

I'm not a city worker. But why do you think you think paying salaries for 13,000 people is remotely burdensome? 60% of those salaries are between $50K and $100K. And they're the enemy?

Are we going to fire all the Youth Employment Counsellors making $60 grand a year to fund an arena?

No. No we're not. I don't know if you read the news, but it's tough to find a city on this planet with better local government than Calgary. They're good in a crisis. They don't have oodles of debt. Literally every new road that's been built in the last fifteen years is awesome. They don't cower to billionaires. The fire department works.

Yeah, they're insane with the photo radar. They abuse the #### out of that power. But oh my god can things be a lot worse.

I think you're making my comment out to be more antagonistic than it is, by using phrases such as '**** the middle class' and 'enemy'. My point was only that when the city makes decisions such as it has and runs itself as it does, there are consequences. One of them being there's less money for capital projects such as a new arena and events center, C-train line to the airport and less money for services such as snow removal, bus services, etc.

The city just released it's 4 year budget, and due to the smoking creator in downtown vacancy rates the property values in the downtown are down a significant amount that the city has to make up elsewhere. This budget chooses austerity in their capital and operating budget and tax hikes on residential (3.5%) and a substantial hike placed on small businesses (25%) to make up the gap.

Somehow to advance this project forward we need to fit an arena or events center in there. My only point is that when we choose to build the most expensive highest quality things over more functional designs there's less money for other things. That's not a value judgement, based on the rave reviews of the library that might have been a great decision. It's just the facts that we can't have the best everything without either items that many consider crucial being unfunded, or it negatively impacting businesses and residents by passing on large tax increases.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...2019-1.4904431

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Travis Munroe

Are the arena/stadium's which have been 100% privately funded profitable? Between leasing out to NHL, NLL & WHL teams + concert event bookings and anything else you could fill it with, I wonder if it can be profitable.

I did the math in one of the previous threads. Based upon the difference in ticket prices for Oilers and Flames, a $600 million arena would be paid off in about 20 years; based solely upon the just the difference in Flames ticket sales. Roughnecks and Hitmen would likely be a wash, and then you would have the increased concert revenue.

Add in the city paying $175m of that price tag, it definitely becomes profitable with just the NHL as the only major "tenant."

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think you're making my comment out to be more antagonistic than it is, by using phrases such as '**** the middle class' and 'enemy'. My point was only that when the city makes decisions such as it has and runs itself as it does, there are consequences. One of them being there's less money for capital projects such as a new arena and events center, C-train line to the airport and less money for services such as snow removal, bus services, etc.

The city just released it's 4 year budget, and due to the smoking creator in downtown vacancy rates the property values in the downtown are down a significant amount that the city has to make up elsewhere. This budget chooses austerity in their capital and operating budget and tax hikes on residential (3.5%) and a substantial hike placed on small businesses (25%) to make up the gap.

Somehow to advance this project forward we need to fit an arena or events center in there. My only point is that when we choose to build the most expensive highest quality things over more functional designs there's less money for other things. That's not a value judgement, based on the rave reviews of the library that might have been a great decision. It's just the facts that we can't have the best everything without either items that many consider crucial being unfunded, or it negatively impacting businesses and residents by passing on large tax increases.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...2019-1.4904431

call me crazy but a frickin' NHL arena is low on my list or priorities for city funded projects.

I'd prefer they gilded the library in gold and marble like the pyramids before coughing up a bunch of money for a profitable private business.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

call me crazy but a frickin' NHL arena is low on my list or priorities for city funded projects.

I'd prefer they gilded the library in gold and marble like the pyramids before coughing up a bunch of money for a profitable private business.

I wouldn't call you crazy. You just dislike the Flames ownership on a personal level.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I wouldn't call you crazy. You just dislike the Flames ownership on a personal level.

I dunno, same guy was whining about snow removal a few weeks ago when the city got that huge dump. Bunk told him how the city had cut expenses significantly and were paying less per capita for snow removal than other canadian cities. Cowboy essentially said he didn't believe him. and that the city was still too wasteful.

now in this thread, he's whining that the city is broke and can't pay for a new arena for a profitable established corporation.

Sounds like he's really only got one concern when it comes to city expenditures.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think you're making my comment out to be more antagonistic than it is, by using phrases such as '**** the middle class' and 'enemy'. My point was only that when the city makes decisions such as it has and runs itself as it does, there are consequences. One of them being there's less money for capital projects such as a new arena and events center, C-train line to the airport and less money for services such as snow removal, bus services, etc.

The city just released it's 4 year budget, and due to the smoking creator in downtown vacancy rates the property values in the downtown are down a significant amount that the city has to make up elsewhere. This budget chooses austerity in their capital and operating budget and tax hikes on residential (3.5%) and a substantial hike placed on small businesses (25%) to make up the gap.

Somehow to advance this project forward we need to fit an arena or events center in there. My only point is that when we choose to build the most expensive highest quality things over more functional designs there's less money for other things. That's not a value judgement, based on the rave reviews of the library that might have been a great decision. It's just the facts that we can't have the best everything without either items that many consider crucial being unfunded, or it negatively impacting businesses and residents by passing on large tax increases.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...2019-1.4904431

Trust me, I know a lot of small businesses right now that dreading this.

That is a huge increase that is going to take a huge bite out revenues.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Cowboy essentially said he didn't believe him. and that the city was still too wasteful.

I read the financial statements of the city and couldn't reconcile the magnitude of the savings claims that were made. I also posted these items for those who care to wade through the statements as I did. Again, in both the snow removal thread and in this thread I'm not actually advocating that the city needs to spend on these items. Just pointing out that when people question why there's no additional capital or operating funds for the things in question in the appropriate thread, I'm just pointing out that there are other options than just insisting that everyone needs to be taxed more to shoe horn in these expenditures. The way the city does things can be re-prioritized should that be the will of the citizens.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I read the financial statements of the city and couldn't reconcile the magnitude of the savings claims that were made. I also posted these items for those who care to wade through the statements as I did. Again, in both the snow removal thread and in this thread I'm not actually advocating that the city needs to spend on these items. Just pointing out that when people question why there's no additional capital or operating funds for the things in question in the appropriate thread, I'm just pointing out that there are other options than just insisting that everyone needs to be taxed more to shoe horn in these expenditures. The way the city does things can be re-prioritized.

Re-prioritized to give a huge amount, hundreds of millions, to a privately owned consortium that's been in business and making money in the city for nearly 40 years?

I'm not trying to insult you or misrepresent your posts, but it's more than mildly incongruent to talk about gold plating wages as a factor for why the city can't throw a bunch of money at the wealthiest ownership group in the NHL.

[BurningSteel]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'd prefer they gilded the library in gold and marble like the pyramids before coughing up a bunch of money for a profitable private business.

Great u got your new library, Can I have a new arena? Ill never set foot in the library. I would use the arena. I dont really care "who" owns "what"

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Re-prioritized to give a huge amount, hundreds of millions, to a privately owned consortium that's been in business and making money in the city for nearly 40 years?

I'm not trying to insult you or misrepresent your posts, but it's more than mildly incongruent to talk about gold plating wages as a factor for why the city can't throw a bunch of money at the wealthiest ownership group in the NHL.

I don't take any of your posts personally or as a personal insult. If I came across as whining in previous posts or as some unwashed pleb trying to take a lazy poke at a claim made by a respected poster who worked at a high level in the mayors office than that's on me to articulate my points better.

I don't see it as in-congruent at all. Paying more than necessary, to provide the level of services required, unquestionably means the city then has less money available for other priorities should that be snow removal, a new hockey arena, 4 car C-trains, airport LRT or any other number of other things. The city doesn't exist as a 'make-work' project to give people employment, it exists to provide services to it's residents.

Also to be clear I didn't say gold plating wages. I said gold plating capital projects. What that means is that the city over the past decade has had a tenancy to spend a large amount of dollars for the highest quality of facilities in style and form. Many people have expressed their high amount of satisfaction for this. The peace bridge, the central library, north west YMCA, etc. are examples of capital projects that are widely loved. To that end though I think that the lost opportunity cost of all the other things we could have done had we say built a more functional central Library for $150 million rather than $250 million, built a less lavish NW rec center, needs to highlighted as well.

Especially with the backdrop of the conversation we're having now where there are projects that citizens are advocating for and there's a revenue gap at the city due to the poorer economic and decline in downtown real estate. When you only buy the nicest things, you can't have as many things. The loss of the things we couldn't build should be considered an opportunity cost. I find that's not talked about enough, or if it is it's being addressed superficially and disingenuously by self-described 'fiscal-hawks' on city council.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by BurningSteel

Great u got your new library, Can I have a new arena? Ill never set foot in the library. I would use the arena. I dont really care "who" owns "what"

Sure, as long as I can go play in the arena whenever I want

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by lambeburger

Only this city would pay 40 bucks an hour to a person working in an unionized call centre while claiming that there are no efficiencies that can possibly be made.

I didn't realize that the city actually paid so well...

No wonder there's no money to deal with the infestation of pigeons in my neighborhood or to fix the potholes.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Well it comes from developers, but it's kind of misleading because it's about being 'built-out' and while they know what that looks like and how much money would need to be invested to get there, it's not like this is a project you just say "go" and the builders move in and are in a race to get everything finished. The East Village isn't even built out yet and this is more the continuation of that. You're probably not looking at being built out for another decade or so even if projects get going soon. There are timelines and ROIs to be considered, but now that CMLC is running things instead of the Stampede, the likelihood of actually getting going with it is much, much higher.

Assuming the Arena comes in around $700m I would love to see what the other $2.3 billion looks like, a nice commercial building costs about $20.00 per square foot to build, these structures would need to be inlaid in gold to come close to that amount of money.