COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s not like anyone is arguing that lockdowns are inherently good. They are the best and most effective solution in a pandemic situation without vaccine coverage, but a pandemic situation is total #### to begin with, so you’re simply trying to handle a #### situation as best you can, of course it’s going to be significantly worse than “regular” non-pandemic life.

I find it odd people can’t wrap their head around that and act like lockdowns occurred in isolation (no pun intended).

Haha, oh wow deep thought. Sure, they were necessary to prevent widespread illness and death, but they are going to have a lot of negative consequences which will stick with us long after this pandemic is over.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

What do you see as the long term negative consequences from the lockdown, as opposed to the pandemic itself?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

Haha, oh wow deep thought. Sure, they were necessary to prevent widespread illness and death, but they are going to have a lot of negative consequences which will stick with us long after this pandemic is over.

Maybe. They’ll certainly have some. They also certainly alleviated a number of negative consequences that otherwise would have occurred. How do you think people are going to identify the negative consequences of lockdowns separately from the pandemic?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Peter12 clearly stated they were a necessary evil.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Peter12 clearly stated they were a necessary evil.

My question/post isn't positioned to convince anyone they were necessary, I know he said that. I'm asking how you separate them out from the pandemic itself, long after the pandemic is over.

Like what are the many negative consequences unique only to the lockdown?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My question/post isn't positioned to convince anyone they were necessary, I know he said that. I'm asking how you separate them out from the pandemic itself, long after the pandemic is over.

Like what are the many negative consequences unique only to the lockdown?

Your entire first paragraph in response to the post in question reads as if he didn’t just say all of that in fewer words.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Your entire first paragraph in response to the post in question reads as if he didn’t just say all of that in fewer words.

And I just explained to you what I was getting at.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My question/post isn't positioned to convince anyone they were necessary, I know he said that. I'm asking how you separate them out from the pandemic itself, long after the pandemic is over.

Like what are the many negative consequences unique only to the lockdown?

Maybe this pandemic has just been a net evil and the prolonged lockdowns and isolation are just going to be another thing that we have to deal with? Maybe those consequences will end up being worse than the actual virus given deteriorating social and political conditions before the pandemic?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

What do you see as the long term negative consequences from the lockdown, as opposed to the pandemic itself?

Social dislocation, increased conflict, mass disenchantment with already broken institutions, exponential inequality, nihilism, fear…

Like lots of things, ya. The world already wasn’t in a good place.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

I guess I don’t see those things as particularly linked to lockdowns. You could probably replace lockdown with social media and say the same thing.

[chedder]

So in a surprise to nobody, AHS extended their employee vaccine mandate to start November 30th. How much you want to bet they're following the Ontario lead and will kick this can down the road until they announce vaccines no longer required.

Obviously too scared of the too many employees that were willing to walk off and affect patient care.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I guess I don’t see those things as particularly linked to lockdowns. You could probably replace lockdown with social media and say the same thing.

It's also odd to attribute things to "lockdowns" that are really the results of a pandemic. It's not like there's a counterfactual reality where we could have not mitigated the spread of COVID and come out OK. When looking at the increased rates of depression and anxiety by country, it's pretty clear that the rate of spread is the primary factor. Increased rates of depression:

Spoiler!

and in anxiety disorders:

Spoiler!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...143-7/fulltext

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by chedder

So in a surprise to nobody, AHS extended their employee vaccine mandate to start November 30th. How much you want to bet they're following the Ontario lead and will kick this can down the road until they announce vaccines no longer required.

Obviously too scared of the too many employees that were willing to walk off and affect patient care.

I still don't understand why provinces didn't offer a testing option for jobs like health care where there is a shortage of workers and a risk to the public if they're fired. You can make it very inconvenient and expensive for the unvaccinated to encourage the non-hardcore antivaxxers to get vaccinated (say 2-3 tests a week taken outside work hours at the employee's expense). But now they're just going to probably end up backing down and allowing unvaccinated people to work with no extra protective measures.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I still don't understand why provinces didn't offer a testing option for jobs like health care where there is a shortage of workers and a risk to the public if they're fired. You can make it very inconvenient and expensive for the unvaccinated to encourage the non-hardcore antivaxxers to get vaccinated (say 2-3 tests a week taken outside work hours at the employee's expense). But now they're just going to probably end up backing down and allowing unvaccinated people to work with no extra protective measures.

I think the school board my wife works at has come up with a reasonable plan. If you are not vaccinated you need to be tested twice/week at each worksite (so if you work mornings at one school and afternoons at another you have to be tested at both). The testing is done at least half an hour before your shift starts and in front of your supervisor. So at least if you are not vaccinated you have the additional inconvenience of coming in early twice/week. Maybe not so good for the supervisors if they have to come in early too.


At my work if they have an approved medical or religious accommodation the employee pays 25% of the testing cost, or 75% if they don't.

[MoneyGuy]

I remain sceptical of these religious exemptions. I’m sure some are legit but many are probably BS. (Please don’t slam religion as this isn’t about that.)

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I remain sceptical of these religious exemptions. I’m sure some are legit but many are probably BS. (Please don’t slam religion as this isn’t about that.)

Which religions provide an avenue for them? From what I've heard, all the major religions have no problem with it. I would expect any exemptions on religious grounds to require some evidence.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I remain sceptical of these religious exemptions. I’m sure some are legit but many are probably BS. (Please don’t slam religion as this isn’t about that.)

They are pretty much a belief formulated to fit an imagined ideal. Some of the beliefs might be sincerely held, but that doesn't mean that the roots aren't BS that as invented after they decided they didn't want to take vaccines. Any religion that is new enough to have an honest opinion about vaccines at it's roots is so new that we are probably calling a cult rather than calling it a religion.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I remain sceptical of these religious exemptions. I’m sure some are legit but many are probably BS. (Please don’t slam religion as this isn’t about that.)

Posted this before but pertinent to this. I think this is an hmo in Kentucky or somewhere down south.

[TorqueDog]

How much less likely are you to spread covid-19 if you're vaccinated?

Turns out, quite a lot less likely:

A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

This is only slightly lower than with the alpha variant, says Brechje de Gier at the Center for Epidemiology and Surveillance of Infectious Diseases in the Netherlands, who led the study. Her team had previously found that vaccinated people infected with alpha were 73 per cent less likely to infect unvaccinated people.

What is important to realise, de Gier says, is that the full effect of vaccines on reducing transmission is even higher than 63 per cent, because most vaccinated people don’t become infected in the first place.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Which religions provide an avenue for them? From what I've heard, all the major religions have no problem with it. I would expect any exemptions on religious grounds to require some evidence.

Because evidence is what religion is known for.