Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum

View Poll Results: What role do humans play in contributing to climate change?
Humans are the primary contributor to climate change 385 64.27%
Humans contribute to climate change, but not the main cause 154 25.71%
Not sure 32 5.34%
Climate change is a hoax 28 4.67%
Voters: 599. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-16-2019, 02:25 PM   #241
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
Exactly, the problem is massively complex, so much so that in reality no one has anything close to a viable solution.

It is massively complex. We have to see some technology jumps to solve the issue, and we have to use our existing tech that much better. We are still going to rely on carbon based energy stores, we just need to use them way more efficiently and capture the waste products. We are going to have to rely on utility solar AND residential solar. We are going to have to see the advent of better fuel cells.



I keep harping on this when this discussion comes up, but Alberta should be leading the planet in development and refinement of fuel cells that use natural gas to generate electricity and heat for residences. Imagine if you could generate all your power needs from a fridge sized appliance that is fed by a single natural gas line? This is a possible reality. This can be done and drive people to the one resource Alberta has in spades. Why is it not happening?
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 02:29 PM   #242
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Utility scale is likely superior, but its not the only way to leverage solar. This is part of the problem with people addressing the climate science issue. They think there is one magic bullet, when there needs to be a 30 round magazine full of bullets to solve this problem.
My point it is misused resources. You acknowledge utility scale is likely superior, so why not deploy all available capital in the most efficient way possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Residential power generation is a great solution as well. And no, it wasn't home owners who came up with this idea, it was the utilities themselves. The problem was they didn't think that so many people would have such large installations that they would not need to leverage the grid tie-in, and then make their money off the differential. Because vendors have come in and are providing over-sized installations, ones that generate an excess of electricity, the utilities are finding less demand for their product and paying out more than they anticipated. Sucks to be them. Good for the people that had the wherewithal to build a better mouse trap, and then homeowners for being able to take advantage of it.
Good for the people who can afford it, you mean? Own their own house, and have the capital to spend? Sucks to be poor? Think that through a little.


Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Seems really efficient for me and my neighbors. Seems really efficient for our utility as well, as they can spin down the gas and nuclear generation units when demand is low. In a world where we want people to be more self-sufficient this seems like a perfect solution. The only way it could get better is if I didn't need the utility heartbeat, and could be totally self-sufficient, but that is a legislated requirement for systems in my market. Now THAT ain't fair!
Gas, yes. Nuclear? No. They are on or off. Did you ever stop to ask WHY it may be legislated? I'll let you think on that. You seem to think utility companies are all evil, but modern society wouldn't exist without them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Wow, why are the numbers so low? I generate that much in a month with the exception of the very winter months. I would think that Calgary would generate a ton during the summer with the longer days, which would up the generation? Why does Calgary generate so little when they have so many generating hours to rely upon?
Because the sun shines in the summer when you don't need it, and not in the winter when you do. We have much shorter days in the winter as well.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 02:32 PM   #243
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
It is massively complex. We have to see some technology jumps to solve the issue, and we have to use our existing tech that much better. We are still going to rely on carbon based energy stores, we just need to use them way more efficiently and capture the waste products. We are going to have to rely on utility solar AND residential solar. We are going to have to see the advent of better fuel cells.


keep harping on this when this discussion comes up, but Alberta should be leading the planet in development and refinement of fuel cells that use natural gas to generate electricity and heat for residences. Imagine if you could generate all your power needs from a fridge sized appliance that is fed by a single natural gas line? This is a possible reality. This can be done and drive people to the one resource Alberta has in spades. Why is it not happening?
Because it makes no sense! Goddamn man, its the same as the solar argument. You think it makes more sense for everyone to generate their own electricity from natural gas in the house, rather than a central facility, using combined cycle technology? I'll let you do the math on it, but spoiler alert, it doesn't.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:01 PM   #244
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
My point it is misused resources. You acknowledge utility scale is likely superior, so why not deploy all available capital in the most efficient way possible?
Because utilities are not incentivized to adopt change until it is forced on them by lost customers. The only way you force change on a large monolithic interest like a utility is to change the customer base. Social change is driven by small groups within the masses.

Quote:
Good for the people who can afford it, you mean? Own their own house, and have the capital to spend? Sucks to be poor? Think that through a little.
Have the capital? My solar install cost me NOTHING out of pocket. Not a single red cent. The same deal can be, and is being extended, to anyone who has a utility account and decent credit. No capital required. Thanks Tesla!
Quote:
Did you ever stop to ask WHY it may be legislated? I'll let you think on that.
They were legislated to protect the utilities' profits. They have a massive lobby and paid millions of dollars to protect their revenue stream. These private enterprises relied on public legislation to protect their revenues and chase away the competition driven by those mean solar companies. I'll let you think on that.
Quote:
You seem to think utility companies are all evil, but modern society wouldn't exist without them.
I don't think utilities are evil at all. They provide an important service. I wish people would remember that the utilities were originally government run, because private enterprise will not invest money in these big concepts that have a long term payoff. The public has to front the money, the government builds these things, then the utilities come flocking to use the infrastructure that was built out.
Quote:
Because the sun shines in the summer when you don't need it, and not in the winter when you do. We have much shorter days in the winter as well.
That does not answer the question of the differential in power generation. My house generates ~14,500kw in a year on an 8.5kw system. A location in Sweet Grass, MT, generates ~11,000. Why would Calgary only generate a fraction of that? Use and demand does not system impact generation capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
Because it makes no sense! Goddamn man, its the same as the solar argument. You think it makes more sense for everyone to generate their own electricity from natural gas in the house, rather than a central facility, using combined cycle technology? I'll let you do the math on it, but spoiler alert, it doesn't.
I don't care what you think is more efficient, its what causes change and moves the needle. I would prefer centralized power generation, but the grid is so old and can't sustain the load you need to distribute the generation to the endpoint. It's all about business too. Albertans wonder why your economy sucks? Think you make more money selling a couple dozen power plants, or selling tens of millions of units to consumers around the globe? I'll let you think on that one and do the math.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 04:55 PM   #245
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Renters can't get solar systems. I'm obviously not 100% familiar with whatever arrangement you have, but nothing in life is free. I'd be interested to know how it works though. Is it subsidized from government? Leased?



As to your point about the grid being so old it can't sustain the load, I don't know where that is an issue. Certainly not here. I would thing it would be more challenging for utilities to integrate all these little loads popping up all over the grid.

Quote:
But what happens when 20 percent or more of the homes in a neighborhood go solar and a cloud passes overhead? That changes a neighborhood of solar power producers to utility power customers in a matter of minutes – and grids built to deliver power one way at constant voltages and frequencies have trouble accommodating that two-way, intermittent flow.
Too much solar power, and local grid voltage could rise, causing potential problems for motors, lights and other equipment. Too little, and voltage can sag. That may only flicker light bulbs at home, but it can lead to million-dollar work stoppages for customers like semiconductor manufacturers and server farms that need clean power at a near-to-constant voltage and frequency.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...grid-challenge


I know you are happy with your system, but it is not the most efficient way to spend dollars, and downloads costs on to others. You have yet to provide any substantially good reason why rooftop solar is better than utility scale.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #246
wookster
Powerplay Quarterback
 
wookster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: right here of course
Exp:
Default

Interesting (although long) article on Green Energy - Sorry if its been posted before but I haven't looked through the entire thread. The talk on Solar energy reminded me of it:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...ear-impossible

Like I said, its a long read but an interesting one detailing the challenges of energy sources such as solar and wind power.
wookster is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wookster For This Useful Post:
Old 04-16-2019, 05:29 PM   #247
burn_this_city
Franchise Player
 
burn_this_city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default



We don't want solar or wind, it's a waste of space and a pox on the natural world.
burn_this_city is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to burn_this_city For This Useful Post:
Old 04-16-2019, 06:09 PM   #248
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wookster View Post
Quote:
The annual output of Teslaís Gigafactory, the worldís largest battery factory, could store three minutesí worth of annual U.S. electricity demand. It would require 1,000 years of production to make enough batteries for two daysí worth of U.S. electricity demand. Meanwhile, 50Ė100 pounds of materials are mined, moved, and processed for every pound of battery produced
I can't find a citation for this is the pdf. It contrasts greatly with what Elon claimed which was it would take about 100 gigafactories.
zamler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 06:14 PM   #249
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Because utilities are not incentivized to adopt change until it is forced on them by lost customers. The only way you force change on a large monolithic interest like a utility is to change the customer base. Social change is driven by small groups within the masses.


Have the capital? My solar install cost me NOTHING out of pocket. Not a single red cent. The same deal can be, and is being extended, to anyone who has a utility account and decent credit. No capital required. Thanks Tesla!
They were legislated to protect the utilities' profits. They have a massive lobby and paid millions of dollars to protect their revenue stream. These private enterprises relied on public legislation to protect their revenues and chase away the competition driven by those mean solar companies. I'll let you think on that.

I don't think utilities are evil at all. They provide an important service. I wish people would remember that the utilities were originally government run, because private enterprise will not invest money in these big concepts that have a long term payoff. The public has to front the money, the government builds these things, then the utilities come flocking to use the infrastructure that was built out.

That does not answer the question of the differential in power generation. My house generates ~14,500kw in a year on an 8.5kw system. A location in Sweet Grass, MT, generates ~11,000. Why would Calgary only generate a fraction of that? Use and demand does not system impact generation capacity.

I don't care what you think is more efficient, its what causes change and moves the needle. I would prefer centralized power generation, but the grid is so old and can't sustain the load you need to distribute the generation to the endpoint. It's all about business too. Albertans wonder why your economy sucks? Think you make more money selling a couple dozen power plants, or selling tens of millions of units to consumers around the globe? I'll let you think on that one and do the math.
Are you in a state where when you sell back to the ford you get preferential pricing over untility providers or donít pay for transportation infrastructure on your sales?

Is there a tax subsidy provided the government to install these panels or is it purely private investment subsidizing the install and selling the power?
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 06:15 PM   #250
accord1999
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
I can't find a citation for this is the pdf. It contrasts greatly with what Elon claimed which was it would take about 100 gigafactories.
The recent spat between Panasonic and Tesla revealed that current production is about 24 GWh/year.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/04/15...-yet-achieved/

American electricity generation in 2018 was about 4,177,810 GWh.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/mont...php?t=epmt_1_1
accord1999 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to accord1999 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-16-2019, 06:35 PM   #251
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Don't need to store a years worth of energy at any given time that's not the purpose of a battery farm you buffer and store allows generators to be more efficient (and they last longer) and of course store solar/wind energy. See the Tesla Australia battery project as an example.
zamler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 08:23 PM   #252
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
Renters can't get solar systems. I'm obviously not 100% familiar with whatever arrangement you have, but nothing in life is free. I'd be interested to know how it works though. Is it subsidized from government? Leased?
Renters can't get solar? Then rent from someone who has solar? Or how about buying a house and leasing? My situation is a lease at 20% less than the cost of our yearly electricity, prior to any credits from selling excess back to the utility. It was a no-brainer and continues to pay-off for being an early adopter.

Quote:
As to your point about the grid being so old it can't sustain the load, I don't know where that is an issue. Certainly not here. I would thing it would be more challenging for utilities to integrate all these little loads popping up all over the grid.
That's an issue all over the United States. Our power grid sucks. During summer we suffer from regular outages or rolling brown-outs in many regions.

Quote:
I know you are happy with your system, but it is not the most efficient way to spend dollars, and downloads costs on to others. You have yet to provide any substantially good reason why rooftop solar is better than utility scale.
That's your opinion. There are tens of thousands of people around the US who disagree with you and have adopted this strategy. It is better than utility scale because big business will not adopt the technology until they are pushed into a corner by consumer adoption of the technology themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wookster View Post
Interesting (although long) article on Green Energy - Sorry if its been posted before but I haven't looked through the entire thread. The talk on Solar energy reminded me of it:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...ear-impossible

Like I said, its a long read but an interesting one detailing the challenges of energy sources such as solar and wind power.
This is why media literacy is such an important factor in our world today. The Manhattan Institute? I guess you're not aware they are front for the fossil fuel lobby, funded by the likes of Koch Industries and Exxon. They are also directly connected to the America Legislative Exchange Council, the same ones who write the pro-business bills that end up in laws around the nation. This is a propaganda piece planted by the fossil fuel industry hoping to give the impression that there is no technology we can use to shift our dependence away from their product.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 08:48 PM   #253
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

You have still done presented nothing that invalidates my original statement that you took issue with. That rooftop solar is not an efficient use of limited dollars and it would be better to dedicate all funding to utility scale solar. And it's not like they aren't being built. You pretend that industry won't touch it until forced, well my point is any home solar incentives should be directed to industry, because it is far far more efficient. That's my point.



If you want your own solar system, well fine, but everyone should not pay for your system.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 08:54 PM   #254
driveway
A Fiddler Crab
 
driveway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Exp:
Default

For those who believe that humans do contribute, but are not the main cause... what do you think is the main cause?
driveway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 09:08 PM   #255
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burn_this_city View Post


We don't want solar or wind, it's a waste of space and a pox on the natural world.
Nuclear is the only answer.
Scroopy Noopers is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Scroopy Noopers For This Useful Post:
Old 04-16-2019, 09:46 PM   #256
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
You have still done presented nothing that invalidates my original statement that you took issue with. That rooftop solar is not an efficient use of limited dollars and it would be better to dedicate all funding to utility scale solar.
And you've presented nothing, and I mean nothing, that indicates industries will adopt new technologies without first having a market demand for those goods or services, or seeing their market share drop as a result of their customers forcing adoption. Yes, it may be more pragmatic to invest all the money into a utility, but since utilities are privately run businesses (for the most part) shouldn't they be doing their own investment? What you fail to acknowledge, or even understand, is that these incentives were given to build out demand and force the marketplace. All the incentives in the world weren't forcing the utilities to rapid adopt, so instead the government incentivized the public to adopt, which has been extremely effective. It has also been extremely efficient for those who have adopted.
Quote:
And it's not like they aren't being built. You pretend that industry won't touch it until forced, well my point is any home solar incentives should be directed to industry, because it is far far more efficient. That's my point.
It isn't pretending. It's a fact. Incentives were offered to the utilities and they were luke warm on the early adoption and did not take up the government on their offer. So instead the government offered to home owners to adopt. They did this because they recognized the weakness of the grid, and that residential power generation could be a part of the bigger problem. It created a market and forced the utilities hand. You may not agree, and that is fine. There are tens of thousands of home owners who have adopted and have created a problem for the utilities.
Quote:
If you want your own solar system, well fine, but everyone should not pay for your system.
No one is paying for it but me, thank you. Thanks for your faux concern. As far as everyone paying for things that you should be more concerned about, maybe start with the big fossil fuel energy companies. For every single dollar renewables are subsidized, oil companies receive seven dollars.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 11:07 PM   #257
snootchiebootchies
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ark2 View Post
You also said that you look at action on climate change as something akin to Pascalís Wager. So that we are clear, Pascalís Wager concerns the belief in God. If you believe in God and it turns out that God exists, then you are granted eternal happiness. If you believe in God and it turns out that God does not exist, then nothing happens. On the other hand, if you donít believe in God and it turns out that God exists, then you suffer eternal damnation. If you donít believe in God and it turns out that God does not exist, then once again, nothing happens. As such, it is a safer bet to believe in God. Agree?

If so, for taking action on climate change to be akin to Pascalís Wager, you are stating that to act on climate change and have climate change in fact not be a serious problem would be no different than to not act on climate change and for climate change to not be a serious problem. So once again, I ask you, what do you believe the sacrifices are of acting on climate change now?
I'm not quite sure I follow. All I said is that it seems to me that the cost of the carbon tax is trivial compared to the potential worst case scenario of climate change, which I believe is the mass extinction of humans. I do not believe that scenario is likely but I think it is a possible, very low-probability outcome, with the probability slowly and gradually increasing every year as the planet gets warmer. If you don't believe that to be the worst case scenario, I totally understand why you may think the carbon tax is too burdensome. I personally think climate change turning out to be not so serious a problem is also a possible, albeit low-probability outcome. But as a generally circumspect person, I want to take action to guard against the worst case scenario. So perhaps you should ask yourself what you think is the worst-case (but still potentially possible) scenario of climate change.
snootchiebootchies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 11:09 PM   #258
wookster
Powerplay Quarterback
 
wookster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: right here of course
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era View Post
This is why media literacy is such an important factor in our world today. The Manhattan Institute? I guess you're not aware they are front for the fossil fuel lobby, funded by the likes of Koch Industries and Exxon. They are also directly connected to the America Legislative Exchange Council, the same ones who write the pro-business bills that end up in laws around the nation. This is a propaganda piece planted by the fossil fuel industry hoping to give the impression that there is no technology we can use to shift our dependence away from their product.

Im not promoting it either way, but a simple google search shows that its mostly funded by Insurance and Pharmaceutical companies like State Farm, Prudential and Pfizer. Although yes, it looks like Exxon has contributed a bit as well but it doesn't appear that "big oil" as you put is actually the majority contributors.



Regardless, I don't care who funds it as long as what is printed is factual, and this appears to be factual and provides real theory like the Benz Limit etc. But please feel free to point out anything that isn't factual and provide some evidence other than just your opinion and I'll be happy to read that as well.
wookster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 11:09 PM   #259
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by driveway View Post
For those who believe that humans do contribute, but are not the main cause... what do you think is the main cause?
The Sun? I voted we are not the main cause only because that was the closest-ish choice. The truth is I don't know for sure but as I've said before I don't think that is important. What is important is we assume that humans are causing climate change and do everything we can to prevent the potentiality. Also I think we need to do way more to reduce pollution (not just emissions) hardly anyone talks about this but it's a serious problem.

That pollution is almost always derived from fossil fuels everything from packaging to industrial chemicals.
zamler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2019, 11:19 PM   #260
snootchiebootchies
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
The Sun? I voted we are not the main cause only because that was the closest-ish choice. The truth is I don't know for sure but as I've said before I don't think that is important. What is important is we assume that humans are causing climate change and do everything we can to prevent the potentiality. Also I think we need to do way more to reduce pollution (not just emissions) hardly anyone talks about this but it's a serious problem.

That pollution is almost always derived from fossil fuels everything from packaging to industrial chemicals.
The good thing is that there is a direct correlation between the carbon intensity of the fuel and the harmfulness and toxicity of its emissions. For example, coal is incredible carbon intensive and also releases sulphur dioxide, reduced sulphur compounds, PAHs, metals, particulates, polycholorinated dioxins and furans, etc. when burned. Diesel doesn't have as much carbon or sulphur but does release large-chained VOCs and PAHs, metals, particulates, etc. Then if you go all the way down the carbon intensity chart to natural gas and hydrogen, they are the most benign in terms of air pollution. So if you care about clean air, you should support eliminating carbon-intensive fuels.
snootchiebootchies is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:00 PM.

Calgary Flames
2022-23




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021