The problem is this is incredibly expensive, frankly locking people up is crap holes is very expensive, any improvement on that comes at increasingly higher costs, well worth it in my opinion but an easy target for generally right wing politics, you will get a raft of headlines asking why our pensioners live in poverty while murderers and rapists live in the lap of luxury and the like
Ya I know it's not going to happen anytime soon simply because it's a long term plan. You'd have to spend billions to get new prisons built and/or existing prisons reformed, and you wouldn't see the true gains for at least a generation or two. And that's the biggest failing of our political system, leaders will not do the neccessary things to improve life in this country if it can't help them win the next election
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to be clear I am not saying that jail is the lap of luxury but the average conservative voter can be sold that, longer sentences in meaner cheaper nastier jails is a basic right wing trope in both the US UK and Canada
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Browsing through this thread it appears that there are 2 sides, one wants violent criminals locked up for longer sentences (which I agree with), and the other points out that in doing so we make the offender more violent due to our current prison system (which I also agree with). So it seems the main thing we should focus on in a criminal justice reform is to completely overhaul our prisons. Norway did this and now their recidivism rate is less than half of Canada's, their prisons look more like dormitories than any of our prisons
My favorite point in that video is the woman pointing out that taking people away from their families and communities is the punishment, not the prison. Their living quarters should be as normal as possible so that they can learn to function as a normal human being, not simply learning to survive inside. Put that system in place and then start looking at longer sentencing guidelines for repeat violent offenders
There's a show on Netflix called (I think) "The World's Toughest Prisons" where the host goes around the world and basically spends time as a prisoner in some of the worst prisons in the world. He also spent time in a prison in Norway and the difference was staggering, not only in the prisons themselves, but levels of recidivism in the respective cultures and violence within the prisons. The prison system in the West, and particularly in the US, seems to be more about punishment than anything. It's a concept that hasn't really changed much for hundreds of years and needs an update. The primary role of prison should be:
1- Protect larger society from dangerous individuals
2- Try to rehabilitate the offender, if possible
In places like Norway the level of recidivism is lower than in Canada, at least partially because they focus on rehabilitation. Ultimately, this is better for society as a whole as you have less crime, lower incarceration costs, less negative impact on society. From a cultural perspective, when part of the DNA of a society is revenge (which plays a large part in our current penal system) it becomes a feedback loop which ultimately leads to more violent crime. The whole "tough on crime" shtick quite likely leads to more violent crime.
That said, there are some people who are so broken that they need to be kept away from larger society probably for their entire lives.
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The of and to a in is I that it for you was with on as have but be they
Or maybe Norway is using a different approach all together other than better prisons. What are the crimes for example that they’re actually incarcerating people for and that we’re not.
Some prolific offenders could benefit from a more authoritarian approach to help them get back on track.
Norway cant be used as a comparable for many of these issues. Norway has a homogenous wealthy population, which is a huge part of their culture; and also why they are willing to pay high taxes, and fund rehabilitative style prisons.
Norway cant be used as a comparable for many of these issues. Norway has a homogenous wealthy population, which is a huge part of their culture; and also why they are willing to pay high taxes, and fund rehabilitative style prisons.
They don’t pay a heck of a lot more than us per prisoner, and based on lower rates of re-offending and generally better outcomes, you’d be hard pressed to make a sound financial argument against it.
And, of course, they absolutely can be used as a comparison. Anything can be used as a comparison. That doesn’t mean the results would be exactly the same but it does give us something to learn from. Dismissing it as “invalid example, disregard” completely misses the point of learning about it in the first place.
Canada occupies a nice middle ground between Norway and the US. Including culturally. The question is whether you want to work towards being more like the US or more like Norway when it comes to our prison system. Good luck arguing the benefits of the US system.
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They don’t pay a heck of a lot more than us per prisoner, and based on lower rates of re-offending and generally better outcomes, you’d be hard pressed to make a sound financial argument against it.
And, of course, they absolutely can be used as a comparison. Anything can be used as a comparison. That doesn’t mean the results would be exactly the same but it does give us something to learn from. Dismissing it as “invalid example, disregard” completely misses the point of learning about it in the first place.
Canada occupies a nice middle ground between Norway and the US. Including culturally. The question is whether you want to work towards being more like the US or more like Norway when it comes to our prison system. Good luck arguing the benefits of the US system.
Not to many PepsiFree posts I agree with as strongly as this one.
Incarceration needs to serve two purposes: protect the public from violent people and rehabilitate them. Any place they're separate accomplishes #1, so focusing on #2 makes sense.
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It is almost irrelevant how much jail costs if it works, my foster kids costs the taxpayer a fortune, I am well paid for what I do plus they have counsellors, educational assistance, free university tuition plus living expenses, easily 100,000 a year but if I can break the cycle of poverty and crime so my kids can get a job then I save Canada several million over the 40 or 50 years my kids could be in jail, on welfare, in hospital etc
Not rehabilitating is like not putting oil into your car, saves a pittance in the short term for massive costs long term
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The day before the stabbing rampage at James Smith Cree Nation, Damien Sanderson’s wife, Skye, called 911 to report her husband.
He had taken her car and was high and drunk, driving around the tiny Saskatchewan community with his brother, Myles, lurking around her father’s house and trying to intimidate him.
She believed the only way to stop them from doing something “stupid” was to get them both locked up.
“I was trying to save my husband from his brother. I knew that wasn’t my husband.”
But, she says, her pleas fell on deaf ears. RCMP members arrived and returned her car to her but didn’t do enough to locate Damien and Myles — despite the pair’s outstanding arrest warrants.
Twenty-four hours later, on Sept. 4, 10 people were dead, 18 people were injured, and the Sanderson brothers were prime suspects in one of the worst mass killings in Canada’s history.
You can’t throw someone in jail because you think they’re going to murder ten people. Even if you charge someone it doesn’t mean they can be held to them not commit more crimes the next day. As far as I know, The Minority Report is not a fact based story.
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But living an honest life - for that you need the truth. That's the other thing I learned that day, that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, leads to liberation and dignity. -Ricky Gervais
You can’t throw someone in jail because you think they’re going to murder ten people. Even if you charge someone it doesn’t mean they can be held to them not commit more crimes the next day. As far as I know, The Minority Report is not a fact based story.
Or you know, lock them up because they had outstanding arrest warrants, as stated in the article. That along with driving while intoxicated and threatening people should have been enough for the RCMP to actually do their goddamn jobs
I don’t think it says they were apprehended the day before. So if you don’t catch them, you can’t execute their warrants.
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But living an honest life - for that you need the truth. That's the other thing I learned that day, that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, leads to liberation and dignity. -Ricky Gervais
Or you know, lock them up because they had outstanding arrest warrants, as stated in the article. That along with driving while intoxicated and threatening people should have been enough for the RCMP to actually do their goddamn jobs
Do their goddamn jobs eh? Do you know what else those 1 or 2 members were dealing with that night? Do you think they knew these 2 dip &!?@s were gonna go on a killing spree? This is the reality of small town policing sometimes unfortunately. There simply is not enough resources to arrest everyone on outstanding warrants, answer calls for service, conduct follow-up on existing investigations, do proactive enforcement and do community policing. You wanna be mad at someone? Be mad at the judges, parole board and the Canadian legal system for allowing these types of people to be out amongst the population.
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I notice that people love complaining about the police, healthcare costs homelessness, etc, but when the solution involves more money they suddenly complain about tax dollars.
Better training, more resources, better community resources so the police have less to deal with and can focus on actual crime… these things cost money. Better jails and resources that that focus on rehabilitation instead of catch and release? You guessed it, more money.
People love to complain about all this stuff but I know from experience on this board that people love complaining about funding these things even more.
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Do their goddamn jobs eh? Do you know what else those 1 or 2 members were dealing with that night? Do you think they knew these 2 dip &!?@s were gonna go on a killing spree? This is the reality of small town policing sometimes unfortunately. There simply is not enough resources to arrest everyone on outstanding warrants, answer calls for service, conduct follow-up on existing investigations, do proactive enforcement and do community policing. You wanna be mad at someone? Be mad at the judges, parole board and the Canadian legal system for allowing these types of people to be out amongst the population.
Yep and let’s take that further. Be mad at yourself for not being willing to pay more taxes for increased resources to deal with these issues properly. Jails are a place. Places have capacities. Pretty basic #### you’d think but here we are.
If there was ever a time for requesting increased funding for the judicial system generally from the general public it probably is after a gigantic homicide spree I would think.
Pure speculation, but do you think police get tired of picking up the same guys time and time again, only to have them back on the street the next day to repeat the cycle.
Maybe sometimes they think it’s just not worth the effort?
Pure speculation, but do you think police get tired of picking up the same guys time and time again, only to have them back on the street the next day to repeat the cycle.
Maybe sometimes they think it’s just not worth the effort?
Yes
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