Legal Advice - falsifying invoices

[#-3]

Doing work for a contractor that is on a cost plus basis, they are asking me for a second higher price invoice that they will not pay, that they will just show the customer.

I assume it's not legal? what's the law against it?
What are the risks for me issuing the invoice?

[zamler]

That's straight up fraud I would try and get away from that contractor as soon as possible. They can make up their own bogus invoices.

You can get yourself in deep trouble doing this, you'll either have 2 invoices on the books for the same thing, or a missing invoice and number. That's the kind of thing that raises red flags.

[MoneyGuy]

Yeah no. That’s fraud.

[topfiverecords]

Even if you don’t do it, they’re probably going to doctor your first invoice so don’t assume you’re in the clear by ignoring their request.

[FlamesAddiction]

If they are asking you to do this, like it ain't no thing, it makes me wonder how normal this kind of thing is in that industry.

If you are a credited accountant, should you maybe report this to your accreditation authority? I don't know how it works, but maybe they can give you some advice and cover your butt in the event they do alter the real invoice.

[afc wimbledon]

What ever you do make sure you get paid up front

[Weitz]

I’ve done a lot of work on a cost plus basis. Many times would my customers randomly audit invoices. Would you want someone to reach out and confirm a fraudulent invoice with your information on it?

[Shazam]

Eh might as well it's not like you're going to get into trouble.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Eh might as well it's not like you're going to get into trouble.

Audits are not fun

[Locke]

I mean...lets start just with the terminology...

"Falsifying Invoices"

Hm. What could be wrong here...?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Audits are not fun

Oh as a spectator they're immense fun.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by #-3

Doing work for a contractor that is on a cost plus basis, they are asking me for a second higher price invoice that they will not pay, that they will just show the customer.

I assume it's not legal? what's the law against it?
What are the risks for me issuing the invoice?

Man, stupid story time.

My buddy (not a euphemism, legit not me) had a contractor propose the same thing but with a shadier piece thrown in; they would sign a contract to execute at X price more than my buddy was charging. Then, my buddy would get paid by this customers customer, and give the difference between the original quote and the amount paid by the customer customer back to this guy in cash. (yeah, typical GC bull####). My buddy is a standup guy but certainly lets dollars and business cloud his judgment, so he agreed to do the job.

And wouldn’t you know it? The dirt bag who was lying and stealing from his customers also turned out to lie and steal from his suppliers. Love my buddy but that’s what you get.

Don’t do shady deals man. They’re shady for a reason.

[#-3]

Yeah, I get the sense there is a big grey area when you get into rebates. But I think this guy is approaching it all wrong. I think it's pretty common to have a deal like, give me 10 jobs and and I'll give you 10% cash back... But I don't get the issuing a fake invoice thing why would you want the paper trail on something like that, and basically all he has told me is that he thinks he is underpaying me for my work.

I get the sense it's pretty damn common in a couple industries.

[karl262]

Go for it! What's the worst that could happen?
Disclaimer: this IS financial and legal advice

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Are you actually asking for advice in a public forum about whether or not you should commit fraud?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by #-3

Yeah, I get the sense there is a big grey area when you get into rebates. But I think this guy is approaching it all wrong. I think it's pretty common to have a deal like, give me 10 jobs and and I'll give you 10% cash back... But I don't get the issuing a fake invoice thing why would you want the paper trail on something like that, and basically all he has told me is that he thinks he is underpaying me for my work.

I get the sense it's pretty damn common in a couple industries.

It is. I know what he's doing.

When you work Cost+ which is what large Contractors do and they have numerous trades sub-contract under them.

Usually the Head Contractor subs his trades out, and bills the customer for their materials and time at 'Cost+' and its usually like 15% or something like that.

But buddy knows that the client clearly has no idea what 'Cost' is, so if he inflates the 'cost' then he can inflate the '+' and pocket the difference.

I dont know if its illegal, per se, but its sure as hell unethical.

This is whats happening.

Buddy has:

1. A Cost+ Client
2. Who doesnt know what the Cost is.
3. Has exhibited lots of money.
4. He has decided he wants to take some of it. More of it than his work is entitled to.
5. Wants you to do his background work for him. I guarantee you that you're not the only one he's asked. If he's SMRT he's trying to inflate the cost of the entire project across all the trades.

Because the thing is, he can be asked to provide proof of the cost of Materials and getting Home Depot to change their invoices isnt gunna happen.

Asking the subs though? That can be done.

And yeah, I've seen this happen before. And people wonder why GCs have a poor reputation.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Are you actually asking for advice in a public forum about whether or not you should commit fraud?

I was actually wondering if anyone knew the specific laws that would be cited as a violation, so I could read them.

I don't really have any intention of submitting two different invoices, but I know there are a lot of games that can be played with fine-print discounting and rebates. I'd like to read a little bit more and understand better where the grey area is, because I was quiet certain what he proposed was a red line.

I do have 100% certainty if you are hiring someone on a cost plus contract bases, if a car dealer promises to show you the invoice... there are these games being played where they get a rebate on a separate statement that they don't show you, or some fine print saying x% discount.... And while I squashed this proposal and just sent my invoice, I do think I will be asked again and need to understand the exact rules better.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by #-3

I was actually wondering if anyone knew the specific laws that would be cited as a violation, so I could read them.

I don't really have any intention of submitting two different invoices, but I know there are a lot of games that can be played with fine-print discounting and rebates. I'd like to read a little bit more and understand better where the grey area is, because I was quiet certain what he proposed was a red line.

I do have 100% certainty if you are hiring someone on a cost plus contract bases, if a car dealer promises to show you the invoice... there are these games being played where they get a rebate on a separate statement that they don't show you, or some fine print saying x% discount.... And while I squashed this proposal and just sent my invoice, I do think I will be asked again and need to understand the exact rules better.

Sounds like fraud to me, which has a pretty wide definition:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...ction-380.html

You exaggerating an expense, and then charging the customer for that, is pretty straightforward fraud. I would not be a party to that. Definitely the kind of thing that could get you a record, licenses revoked, and possible jail time. Doesn't matter if you're profiting from it, you're still a party to the fraud and will be found liable.

Like other have said, I wouldn't deal with this guy. If he's willing to steal from the customer, he's willing to steal from you. Get paid up front for the job you are doing. Don't ever do a job with them again.

[ResAlien]

I’m not even sure fraud is a crime anymore. Doctor them up but only do so after they pay an additional premium for your extra work, that way when you get audited eventually as they drag you off to federal pound you in the ass prison you can say the fraudulent invoices were merely accounting for your extra billing

[Fuzz]

Fraud is only a crime for the little guy. Are you a little guy?