Canadians 'drowning in debt': 47% will borrow to cover costs, survey says

[Muta]

I believe finance, economics and accounting shouldn't just be requirements for business schools; these are subjects that should be part of the MAIN curriculum starting in elementary school. Financial literacy is so important and it's just glossed over as not important in our school systems.

Then again, banks, big corporations and politicians don't like financially literate citizens. That doesn't work in any of their favour. Best business practice is to keep the general populace stupid and ignorant on those topics.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by nik-

Seems like people could have a more financially stable life if they left Vancouver.

Vancouver is totally broken, why do we still use it as a reasonable example?

Because 2.5 million people live here.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by peter12

Because 2.5 million people live here.

Only 20% have really arrived in the last 20 years or so. Old Vancouver money is probably doing just fine on their salary, equity, and helocs. It's the later arrivals that are really taking it on the chin.

The interesting thing would be if the real estate tide ever went out how many people there are swimming naked.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by peter12

My spouse and I both make over 100k and while we don't feel the pinch, we cannot afford many many things that most people in say Calgary or Ottawa take for granted. She is very limited where she can work in Canada, and I am limited to what I can do outside of Canada. We will probably be leaving in a year or two though. Maybe to Portland for her work, and I can figure out a way to do what I do now remotely.

Lucky! I do envy your mobility! Vancouver used to be where I wanted to go and it's right up my alley industry-wise, but the taxes, cost of living, and day-to-day things (traffic, commute, crowds, politics, etc.) have turned me off from it. It would take a miracle to get me out there career-wise. Might be a decent retirement place if I buy a tiny home in someone's backyard.

My wife and I seriously considered PEI a couple of years ago. Although it's risen lately because of a relative boom happening, it's beautiful, low-cost, and offers a lifestyle that can be had all while doing knowledge-economy things. Would love to get the U.S. west coast as well!

[AltaGuy]

We live in an era of cheap money. It trickles down into everybody's lives. Whoever pointed out their HELOC as the source of their money actually hit the nail on the head here.

Nearly every bit of debt in our economy eventually filters out into an amortized mortgage over as long a period of time as possible. Homeowners just roll their debts into their mortgage, and then fight to keep a minimum amount of equity in their property.

Interest rates are gonna eff us all one day is my prediction. With or without significant debt, one day we'll either need to go lower for economic stimulus or higher for inflation, and won't be able to. When that day happens, the world economy is going to have a time.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Jesus dude. I can completely see that with some of my friends. They obviously had a serious drinking or drug problem that was compounded with easy money. Glad you're on the road back, but I can imagine that would be a crushing hole to climb out of, and would be super easy to fall back into.

Yeah, it was so bad. I was struggling immensely with the 2k limit as addiction just takes over your whole life and then out of the blue CIBC phoned while I was broke.

"So you've made your payments for the past few months, I can approve you for a $16k line of credit right now if you'd like".

It was one of the most devastating conversations of my life. I wanted to scream "Why are you offering me this, I've done nothing to show I need or can handle this". But they get paid to sign people up regardless of how it ****'s them.

My last words were "So with a line of credit how do I get the money out, do I need to request it?". "Nope, you just take it out of an ATM with your debit card with the usual $500 daily limit".

The "every second day" is actually undershooting it. I went and bought blow about 5 days a week until the $16k was gone.

[PsYcNeT]

If we're talking Calgary specifically, I still don't get how everyone in the 'burbs can afford to have 4 or 5 cars.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

If we're talking Calgary specifically, I still don't get how everyone in the 'burbs can afford to have 4 or 5 cars.

They can't. They're leveraged to death.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

If we're talking Calgary specifically, I still don't get how everyone in the 'burbs can afford to have 4 or 5 cars.

It just looks like they have that many cars because their garages are so packed with crap that they can't part their cars inside...

[2ArmBands]

I’m in my mid 30s and last year our family of 4 went to Mexico for the first time. We have done nothing but local “vacations” up to that point and it was our first big vacation.

I could have done something better with the money no question. Not to say the trip was funded by credit but the money could have been put to use elsewhere.

I will say it was an experience that none of us will ever forget. Memories for life. I think something needs to be said for that. I do sympathize with the “you only live once” mentality to an extent.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

We live in an era of cheap money. It trickles down into everybody's lives. Whoever pointed out their HELOC as the source of their money actually hit the nail on the head here.

Nearly every bit of debt in our economy eventually filters out into an amortized mortgage over as long a period of time as possible. Homeowners just roll their debts into their mortgage, and then fight to keep a minimum amount of equity in their property.

Interest rates are gonna eff us all one day is my prediction. With or without significant debt, one day we'll either need to go lower for economic stimulus or higher for inflation, and won't be able to. When that day happens, the world economy is going to have a time.

This is the thing. Higher interest rates (which are going to happen sooner or later), are going to be a huge, huge problem.

The only hope is that they can rise at a slow enough rate as to not wreak havoc. But that doesn't happen...

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Muta

I believe finance, economics and accounting shouldn't just be requirements for business schools; these are subjects that should be part of the MAIN curriculum starting in elementary school. Financial literacy is so important and it's just glossed over as not important in our school systems.

Then again, banks, big corporations and politicians don't like financially literate citizens. That doesn't work in any of their favour. Best business practice is to keep the general populace stupid and ignorant on those topics.

I partly agree, but the truth is a lot of people don't want to know either. I can't be the only one who remembers CALM? It's not my fault that people skipped that and thought it was pointless. We did compound interest, mortgages and all kinds of actual life skills. It wasn't amazing, but it was eye opening for me. In a family with no money, realizing how much it would take to save up a downpayment was sobering!

But the reality is more education is only of so much value. Plenty of times people know they shouldn't be spending as much or should be paying their whole credit card off each month and they're making other choices. That's not likely as a result of education.

[peter12]

We go on vacations once or twice a year - typically by tacking it on to a business trip one of us is one so that one of the flights is paid for. There are ways to travel that are fairly reasonable, but you have to splurge and cut back in equal measure.

[Geraldsh]

Listen to the old guys - when I got my first job and bragged about my pay check my Dad told me
“It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you spend that will get you in trouble.”

It still took quite a few years for that simple homily to sink in.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Only 20% have really arrived in the last 20 years or so. Old Vancouver money is probably doing just fine on their salary, equity, and helocs. It's the later arrivals that are really taking it on the chin.

The interesting thing would be if the real estate tide ever went out how many people there are swimming naked.

Yeah, I think the HELOC is a real thing in Vancouver.

[burn_this_city]

Can interest rates really go up? I always believed they would someday, but now I am skeptical they can without causing some sort of economic calamity. Central Bankers know they can't raise rates very much without watching the whole house of cards collapse.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is the thing. Higher interest rates (which are going to happen sooner or later), are going to be a huge, huge problem.

The only hope is that they can rise at a slow enough rate as to not wreak havoc. But that doesn't happen...

Yeah, interest rates are pretty scary to think about. Just the math on it: at 1.75% adding just that .25% is - of course - already pretty burdensome as a 14% increase.

Interest rates at 1% or lower and you just can never get back out of it if everything is highly leveraged.

Whichever economist (Krugman?) who was sounding the alarms about governments losing the ability to stimulate economies (taxes, interest rates, debt) really hit home to me.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What matters is the monthly mtge payment, not the house price.

According to the BOC, mtge rates in 1985 were 11.75%. So a 5 yr fixed gives you a mtge payment of $757. For today's $450,000 house, at 2.59%, the mtge payment is $1,799. Much closer to the change in inflation.

Sorry, are you assuming they are not putting down any down payment?

It's a lot easier to save up for that $75,000 when you're not drowning in debt from student loans, rent is low and it's only 2x your yearly salary compared to the 10x it is today (quick and dirty average income in 1985 was 36,900 (1985) compared to 46,700 (2017)

There's a reason that first-time home buyers keep getting older and older.

Interest rates need to be factored in, but the way you did that straight math just doesn't add up except for the extreme cases of someone buying with no down payment which doesn't happen.

Dependent on interest rates of course how you approach home buying, but when they were astronomical it just made sense to save up when it was relatively easy to do so. Now it doesn't make as much sense (or at least let's say it wasn't as critical) to save up but that's part of the reason debt is so high too.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Spoiler!

Maybe you are just proving my point? I don't really consider myself an old man, but if you look at it thinking "only an old person could live like that", like there is no possible way a young person could live without a data plan? Assuming you need something just because it is available and others have it, without questioning "do I actually NEED that" is probably a big piece of the puzzle.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe you are just proving my point? I don't really consider myself an old man, but if you look at it thinking "only an old person could live like that", like there is no possible way a young person could live without a data plan? Assuming you need something just because it is available and others have it, without questioning "do I actually NEED that" is probably a big piece of the puzzle.

You could probably get a data plan if you ditched the landline like everyone else did 5-10 years ago. The utility of having data for maps, banking, communicating is easily one of the better uses for your money. No more trudging down to the AMA for the latest maps of Alberta and the City of Calgary.