Canadians 'drowning in debt': 47% will borrow to cover costs, survey says

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Yeah, I don't think Canadian tuition is unreasonable. It's not dirt cheap, but to me it seems like a fair cost for post-secondary education...with some sacrifice and effort (and making sure parents utilize RESPs), it's still relatively accessible to most. It's nowhere near the insanity you see down south.

In the end, there's no one reason for the situation. It's a mix housing costs going crazy, salaries not keeping up, throwaway culture, and terrible financial decisions by people living way beyond their means.

It will likely be the downfall of our society as we know it, but you can't say that now as it just gets brushed off as alarmist and unreasoned. We're likely in line for a large correction in western society, one that will rock the average person/family with debt or no savings in a way they could have never imagined.

Especially with the job market. Everyone alive right now has only known a world where you can get a job if you're responsible and willing. We'll soon see times where that isn't the case and then the true unrest will start.

[GirlySports]

I think travel/vacations are a big one. I didn't even fly on a plane until I was 15.

Before that it was a road trip from Calgary to Disneyland when I was 7 and from Calgary to Niagara Falls when I was 10.

Vegas for the weekend wasn't really a thing like it is now.

And also there is the philosophy about mortgages. If you get a 25 year mortgage, do you pay it off as fast as possible or take the entire 25 years?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by peter12

The cost of housing is the number one culprit. All the Rich Dad blathering on in this thread is tiring as hell.

Yep. It's funny seeing people blame things like TVs, cars, eating out, traveling, etc. The fact remains, people spend a lower proportion of their income on discretionary spending now than they they did in the '70s and '80s.

Based on US data, in 1973 the average family spent 39.6% of their income on housing, transportation, health care, and education; in 2016 they spent 52.8% of their income on those same things. Meanwhile spending on entertainment, alcohol, and tobacco was nearly 50% higher as a proportion of income in 1973 compared to today.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think travel/vacations are a big one. I didn't even fly on a plane until I was 15.

Before that it was a road trip from Calgary to Disneyland when I was 7 and from Calgary to Niagara Falls when I was 10.

Vegas for the weekend wasn't really a thing like it is now.

That's not exactly hard times lol

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

That's not exactly hard times lol

It's not hard times. Just a shift.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yep. It's funny seeing people blame things like TVs, cars, eating out, traveling, etc. The fact remains, people spend a lower proportion of their income on discretionary spending now than they they did in the '70s and '80s.

Based on US data, in 1973 the average family spent 39.6% of their income on housing, transportation, health care, and education; in 2016 they spent 52.8% of their income on those same things. Meanwhile spending on entertainment, alcohol, and tobacco was nearly 50% higher as a proportion of income in 1973 compared to today.

That’s the issue though; people are spending that amount now and using credit to maximize it. So now they have less cash in the door and as long as they keep that credit rotating it works out...until it doesn’t!

[peter12]

The average rent for a one-bedroom apartment in Vancouver is now over $2000.

[nik-]

Seems like people could have a more financially stable life if they left Vancouver.

Vancouver is totally broken, why do we still use it as a reasonable example?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Buy nice things, but plan on having them for a long time. That way you aren't susceptible to the latest greatest must have. The new truck with a slightly nicer interior and apple carplay isn't worth the $30k in depreciation. If you are buying vehicles based on what you can afford on a monthly basis, you're doing it wrong. Get off the never ending payment treadmill, otherwise you'll be on the cat food diet at 70.

I hate personal stuff, but to put it bluntly I struggled greatly with cocaine addiction at the same time as my bank had given me a $2k limit credit card and then a month later a $16k line of credit. I took out $200 every second day for weeks on end for 4 g's of cocaine. It was devastating and after more credit ended up with about $30k in debt and hopeless interest payments.

Made minimum payments for months until the bank started literally taking money from my pay cheques which I needed for rent. I finally went through a consumer proposal (one step below bankruptcy) where they buy your debt from the bank. They bought mine for $8000 and charged it bi-weekly over 4 years interest free.

As embarrassing as it was and is to have no credit cards or credit until it's paid off (summer 2020) I actually feel amazingly free and better off then a good portion of the population now. (Simply being low on money is actually a heavenly feeling compared to "This is bank X you need to put in $300 this Friday just keep us from going to collections")

I mean, great you've got credit and vacations and a new vehicle and own a house and live the "American dream", but also have hopeless debt that you'll have to face at some point, but I'd rather have nothing than what I consider to be less than nothing - unreasonable debt that will come to a head at some point.

Right now I consider "nothing" a huge success. I added $100 a cheque to RRSP's earlier this year (personal plus employer contribution) and it feels so good, yet the average "successful" person would call it a laughable contribution, as that's how our society operates. This next year I'm going to add significant savings on top of RRSP despite still struggling with addiction. Can't wait.

Society actually views you as more successful if you have large RRSP contributions and all the standard "well to do" society standards and hopeless debt that you have to face one day than smaller contributions and no credit, it's hilarious.

[burn_this_city]

I didn't understand the draw for people I knew moving to Vancouver 10 years ago. Very few people get ahead there without mom and dad or a really sweet job. My wife left Vancouver almost 15 years ago because the job prospects were dismal for engineering grads and it was super expensive. That was before things went on overdrive for the last 10 years. Hard to live the Vanlife when you are scraping by in a basement suite in Surrey.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by nik-

Seems like people could have a more financially stable life if they left Vancouver.

Vancouver is totally broken, why do we still use it as a reasonable example?

It isn’t just Vancouver.

[Table 5]

I have no idea how that city functions. Living costs are crazy, taxes are high, there's no obvious high-salaried economic engine...and yet half the town seems to be out for a jog on the seawall.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I hate personal stuff, but to put it bluntly I struggled greatly with cocaine addiction at the same time as my bank had given me a $2k limit credit card and then a month later a $16k line of credit. I took out $200 every second day for weeks on end for 4 g's of cocaine. It was devastating and after more credit ended up with about $30k in debt and hopeless interest payments.

Made minimum payments for months until the bank started literally taking money from my pay cheques which I needed for rent. I finally went through a consumer proposal (one step below bankruptcy) where they buy your debt from the bank. They bought mine for $8000 and charged it bi-weekly over 4 years interest free.

As embarrassing as it was and is to have no credit cards or credit until it's paid off (summer 2020) I actually feel amazingly free and better off then a good portion of the population now.

I mean, great you've credit and vacations and a new vehicle and own a house and hopeless debt that you'll have to face at some point, but I'd rather have nothing than what I consider to be less than nothing - unreasonable debt that will come to a head at some point.

Jesus dude. I can completely see that with some of my friends. They obviously had a serious drinking or drug problem that was compounded with easy money. Glad you're on the road back, but I can imagine that would be a crushing hole to climb out of, and would be super easy to fall back into.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I have no idea how that city functions. Living costs are crazy, taxes are high, there's no obvious high-salaried economic engine...and yet half the town seems to be out for a jog on the seawall.

Every time I'm there I ask myself how the hell that city functions. All I hear about is how unaffordable it is and yet every restaurant and bar is filled constantly. During the day.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

My wife and I do just fine without a data plan, and I don't even really have a cell phone, but I do have a home phone, so I can see a person choosing to have a cell instead, you can spend $30 a month on that. But no, you don't NEED a data plan. Otherwise I guess I'd be unemployed and dead? You also don't need a brand new phone every 2 years, but most people don't keep them longer than that.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

I don't really know how this problem is fixed... even with education.

I know smart people that understand the concept of compound interest, but really want that boat/ATV/BBQ right now and "credit is easy to get".

That's called "Self-control"

And education would help some, as some people would learn that saving money now leads to a lot more freedom later.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by nik-

Seems like people could have a more financially stable life if they left Vancouver.

Vancouver is totally broken, why do we still use it as a reasonable example?

Reasonable wage growth and economic opportunity.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yeah I don't understand the Vancouver situation. It seems to be full of $30k/year millionaires. Some physicians I know who have had opportunities to work in Van turned them down. Sure it's nice to live within driving distance to a beach, but the salaries, taxes, cost of living - it became an easy choice to stay in Alberta or go to Ontario. I know two of them who have moved back to both Edmonton and Calgary recently who said it's not worth making a go of it. I suppose they could practice in satellite towns around Van, but most physicians (unless you're a GP) need to go where the resources, patients, and jobs are - and often it's not Vancouver.

What's interesting to me is that some physicians can make a killing up in Yellowknife apparently. Rotate in and out every two weeks or a month. Living in Yellowknife would be seriously cool but obviously not for everyone.

Back to the original point - when you have high-earners avoiding Vancouver, it should be obvious that people that earn less should be more mobile if the COL and pay just isn't there. Everyone is different though.

[nik-]

Also, congrats to jayswin. Not for quitting, just for achieving a genuinely respectable rock and roll lifestyle.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yeah I don't understand the Vancouver situation. It seems to be full of $30k/year millionaires. Some physicians I know who have had opportunities to work in Van turned them down. Sure it's nice to live within driving distance to a beach, but the salaries, taxes, cost of living - it became an easy choice to stay in Alberta or go to Ontario. I know two of them who have moved back to both Edmonton and Calgary recently who said it's not worth making a go of it. I suppose they could practice in satellite towns around Van, but most physicians (unless you're a GP) need to go where the resources, patients, and jobs are - and often it's not Vancouver.

What's interesting to me is that some physicians can make a killing up in Yellowknife apparently. Rotate in and out every two weeks or a month. Living in Yellowknife would be seriously cool but obviously not for everyone.

Back to the original point - when you have high-earners avoiding Vancouver, it should be obvious that people that earn less should be more mobile if the COL and pay just isn't there. Everyone is different though.

My spouse and I both make over 100k and while we don't feel the pinch, we cannot afford many many things that most people in say Calgary or Ottawa take for granted. She is very limited where she can work in Canada, and I am limited to what I can do outside of Canada. We will probably be leaving in a year or two though. Maybe to Portland for her work, and I can figure out a way to do what I do now remotely.