The Legend of Sam Bennett

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Yikes this thread. Bennett played 402 games and 6+ seasons for the Flames. He played up and down the lineup and looked really good for short stretches but never sustained. He even scored 4 once. We've seen it all.

It's not like Florida found his hidden "go" switch. If he can keep this pace going, awesome for him. He had plenty of opportunities here but simply didn't get it done.

I believe this to be the case in that he likely never would have seen successful as a Flame slotting so far down the line up at center. But that may be a management problem more then anything. This is a shallow line up with holes all over the place especially at the right wing position.

But lets say with hindsight, this organization tried to recreate the magic that’s happening in Florida right now. Sam Bennett is clearly having success playing with 2 very dynamic wingers next to him. It’s given him a new lease on his hockey career and now he’s confident, playing with incredible spunk and hitting everything that moves. In another universe, maybe Treliving could’ve traded for a high end winger and played him with Sam Bennett and perhaps it’s the Flames reaping the rewards of a new Sam Bennett.

I actually like the idea of a Mangiapane, Bennett and Josh Anderson combo. The havoc they could’ve created together. The playmaking and relentless checking ability of Mangiapane, the power, wheels and finishing ability of Josh Anderson coupled with Sam Bennett’s physicality and grit. That could’ve been one helluva line. The sheer amount if turnovers they could’ve orchestrated together would’ve been Darryl’s wet dream.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This argument has been refuted by linemate and ice time data, time and again

Just because people keep saying it doesn’t mean it’s true

That’s why the people who have called it out for years are pleased to see that their suspicions are being confirmed

There was such a small vocal part of our fanbase that has said this for the past 6 years but I would say much more of this forum would have ultimately sided with New Era over GranteedEV in the Bennett debate.

We watched the guy for 6 years and most did not see an elite player who was saddled with bad line mates. Most fans saw a guy who had spurts and flashes of being a top player but for the most part saw a player who tried to make junior moves, take bad penalties, and not finish his chances/plays dying on his stick.

I have always been a Bennett believer but his production in Florida is shocking to me and I do think it is short term. I think he has an even bigger chip on his shoulder than James Neal had when he went over to Edmonton that is helping fuel this run. I think Bennett has a career year next year but I would be surprised if he scored 70+ points. If he does I am happy for him.

I was always surprised they never tried a Bennett-Tkachuk duo who I thought were great compliments for one another and both players thrive when they are under the skin of their opponents.

[Hackey]

Tkachuk Bennett Lindholm should have been the top line.

Glad to see Bennett doing well though. I'm still skeptical it lasts but that would be quite the story.

[Erick Estrada]

How many times did Bennett ever see the ice in overtime for the Flames? If he continues to light things up into the playoffs I think things will look pretty grim for Trelving returning. As if the performance if the team isn't enough there's mounting evidence of asset mismanagement.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A bunch of people are now talking about putting Bennett with Gaudreau instead of Monahan, like that was ever a discussion in the past. That’s top line insertion.

Given where the Flames are at now, what kind of player Monahan has turned out to be, and where Bennett is at now, maybe this should have been more of a discussion.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And exaggeration doesn’t help. Bennett was never on the 4th line (with Stajan) not counting this year. He was always second line with Backlund or 3rd line with Jankowski or the Lucic/Dube versions. He’s played with hardly any “AHL plugs” either. Just not the best guys on the team. Last year his most common linemates were Janko, Reider, Lucic, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube. Not AHL plugs. The year before: Backlund, Tkachuk (24%). The year before that, you might have an argument because he played with Hathaway a lot. But only after Jagr left. Before that, Versteeg and Brouwer. Again, not top talent, but not AHL. Veterans who had scored in the past. The year before that, Backlund and Frolik.

Theo Fleury started on the 3rd/4th line. Earned his way up.

The bolded are literally fourth liners lol. Do I really need to convince you that these were not great players to play with off of your natural position as a developing player? And great, one example from 30 years ago. Good job Flames hockey ops.

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

5v5 for the 8 game stretch Bennett has been on Florida...

CF%: 65.22 (2nd on team)
SF%: 63.48 (4th on team)
GF%: 100.00 (1st on team)
xGF%: 73.25 (1st on team)
SCF%: 69.23 (2nd on team)
HDCF%: 74.29 (1st on team)
HDGF%: 100.00 (1st on team)

He isn't even being "lucky". He's freaking dominating when he's on the ice.

Any chance you have these numbers for Bennett's time in Calgary under Sutter? Obviously they won't be team-leading nor dominating, but it would be interesting to see if the advanced stats his play had been trending up, especially where he ranked relative to the rest of the team/forward group.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How many times did Bennett ever see the ice in overtime for the Flames? If he continues to light things up into the playoffs I think things will look pretty grim for Trelving returning. As if the performance if the team isn't enough there's mounting evidence of asset mismanagement.

There is still the expansion draft situation that could help him justify the return and early reports were the Flames did very well on that trade. Even if the Flames kept Bennett unless he continued at a ppg pace I don’t see how he is protected over Backlund. Right or wrong this org loves Backlund and that includes Darryl.

At least the Flames strengthened their prospect and asset pool instead of losing him for nothing. Once that trade request was made public it was over for him. What player has made a public trade request in the NHL and not eventually moved? Dubois, Hamonic, Drouin are 3 that come to mind in addition to Sam and all were eventually traded.

[dino7c]

29 other teams could have had him for 2 2nds (or maybe less) all season or probably longer if we are being honest

maybe the Oilers would have had to pay a 1st

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jore

Given where the Flames are at now, what kind of player Monahan has turned out to be, and where Bennett is at now, maybe this should have been more of a discussion.



The bolded are literally fourth liners lol. Do I really need to convince you that these were not great players to play with off of your natural position as a developing player? And great, one example from 30 years ago. Good job Flames hockey ops.

Definitely. The price tags alone make it a worthy discussion. Monahan is clearly the better goal scorer in the slot and can produce at an elite clip playing run and gun. But he’s just an ok playmaker, brings limited physicality and doesn’t come close to Bennett’s playoff effectiveness.

Bennett on the otherhand is the complete polar opposite. He’s gritty, heavy in the corners, can play in the guts of the game and hits harder and cleaner then any Flame I’ve ever seen. His shot probably keeps him from being an elite goal scorer and he takes bad penalties in the regular season. But he does play playoff style hockey and is willing to fight to get his team’s spirits up.

It’s probably pretty close in the end as both players have flaws and need good linemates to produce. But man, Sam Bennett’s playoff performance last summer was a real eye opener and his lower cap hit probably gives him the edge.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A bunch of people are now talking about putting Bennett with Gaudreau instead of Monahan, like that was ever a discussion in the past. That’s top line insertion.

"That" was exactly what Quennville did the minute he got his hands on the player. If "that" is an absurdist notion, it's indicative of a lot of what ails not only the Flames organization, but the media and fanbase here. We're so determined to not be the Oilers and Oilers fans and Oilers media, that we're satisfied with sheer mediocrity.

And exaggeration doesn’t help. Bennett was never on the 4th line (with Stajan) not counting this year.

Stajan was a better center than Jankowski.

Jankowski was the fourth best center on the team. Well, actually, he was the sixth best center on the team, as Bennett and Lindholm were always superior at the position yet stapled to the wing.

Ergo, the Jankowski line was the de facto fourth line because centers impact the game a lot more than wingers by virtue of the touches they not only get, but are able to create.

He was always second line with Backlund

He only played with Backlund as a rookie. And he produced like a second liner in his rookie season despite actually only playing with Backlund for about half of that season.

Last year his most common linemates were Janko, Reider, Lucic, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube.

During the regular season? He didn't play much with Lucic, Mangiapane, or Dube at all last year outside of a handful of games where Ryan was injured. I think out of any regular on the roster last year he's had the least amount of time with Mangiapane, though I'm just going by recollection.

Janko, Reider and Zac Rinaldo were his most common linemates. By such an extreme extent that he barely saw icetime away from them.

Not AHL plugs.

The vast majority of the players Bennett played with as a Flame either

- Barely found a home on another team's fourth line
- Barely found a PTO
- Were out of the NHL within a year of playing with Bennett
- In the case of guys like Rinaldo, probably wouldn't be top nine forwards in the AHL.

Again, not top talent, but not AHL.

Brouwer was AHL-caliber. That he didn't play in the AHL was due to past success alone.

Theo Fleury started on the 3rd/4th line. Earned his way up.

Theo Fleury was not a center.
Andrew Mangiapane is not a center, either, before you go there.

Mikael Backlund is a center, and didn't exactly earn his way up, unless you call the team literally blowing it up and handing him the top spot with no other centers on the roster "earning it"

Dillon Dube, probably is a center and isn't exactly earning his way up. Despite being the fastest forward on the roster, and a player whose skillset seems tailor-made for the center position, we've done exactly to him what we did to Sam Bennett - create a glass ceiling where if he's not succeeding on the wing, he has no role on the team.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How many times did Bennett ever see the ice in overtime for the Flames? If he continues to light things up into the playoffs I think things will look pretty grim for Trelving returning. As if the performance if the team isn't enough there's mounting evidence of asset mismanagement.

Flames should have looked at Sam the top 4 they drafted and gave him the means to use those skills.

I am curious to know who is responsible for player development, new coaches, assistants? Management, team scouts?? Sam staying in the bottom 6 was consistent through several coaches? Florida's approach is give the guy a boatload of time, some rope and let him use his skills....

What are the Flames doing who is in charge?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

"That" was exactly what Quennville did the minute he got his hands on the player. If "that" is an absurdist notion, it's indicative of a lot of what ails not only the Flames organization, but the media and fanbase here. We're so determined to not be the Oilers and Oilers fans and Oilers media, that we're satisfied with sheer mediocrity.



Stajan was a better center than Jankowski.

Jankowski was the fourth best center on the team. Well, actually, he was the sixth best center on the team, as Bennett and Lindholm were always superior at the position yet stapled to the wing.

Ergo, the Jankowski line was the de facto fourth line because centers impact the game a lot more than wingers by virtue of the touches they not only get, but are able to create.



He only played with Backlund as a rookie. And he produced like a second liner in his rookie season despite actually only playing with Backlund for about half of that season.



During the regular season? He didn't play much with Lucic, Mangiapane, or Dube at all last year outside of a handful of games where Ryan was injured. I think out of any regular on the roster last year he's had the least amount of time with Mangiapane, though I'm just going by recollection.

Janko, Reider and Zac Rinaldo were his most common linemates. By such an extreme extent that he barely saw icetime away from them.




The vast majority of the players Bennett played with as a Flame either

- Barely found a home on another team's fourth line
- Barely found a PTO
- Were out of the NHL within a year of playing with Bennett
- In the case of guys like Rinaldo, probably wouldn't be top nine forwards in the AHL.



Brouwer was AHL-caliber. That he didn't play in the AHL was due to past success alone.



Theo Fleury was not a center.
Andrew Mangiapane is not a center, either, before you go there.

Mikael Backlund is a center, and didn't exactly earn his way up, unless you call the team literally blowing it up and handing him the top spot with no other centers on the roster "earning it"

Dillon Dube, probably is a center and isn't exactly earning his way up. Despite being the fastest forward on the roster, and a player whose skillset seems tailor-made for the center position, we've done exactly to him what we did to Sam Bennett - create a glass ceiling where if he's not succeeding on the wing, he has no role on the team.

And there you go. Theo Fleury was drafted as a centre and played a lot of centre with the Flames. For a while he was second on the team in FO wins (after Otto).

[GranteedEV]

Alright. Congrats on your knowledge of stuff from before I could crawl

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Flames should have looked at Sam the top 4 they drafted and gave him the means to use those skills.

I am curious to know who is responsible for player development, new coaches, assistants? Management, team scouts?? Sam staying in the bottom 6 was consistent through several coaches? Florida's approach is give the guy a boatload of time, some rope and let him use his skills....

What are the Flames doing who is in charge?

Ron Sutter is head of player development.
Not sure what that includes though - including who is ultimately responsible for player development for the players on the main roster.

EDIT: Actually that might be wrong as Ray Edwards is listed as the director of player development.

Assistant General Manager: Craig Conroy
Assistant General Manager: Brad Pascall
Assistant General Manager: Chris Snow
Senior VP, Hockey Operations: Don Maloney
Director, Hockey Administration: Mike Burke
Director, Pro Personnel: Derek MacKinnon
Director, Player Development: Ray Edwards
Player Development: Ron Sutter
Player Assistance: Brian McGrattan
Director, Amateur Scouting: Tod Button
Asst. Directors of Amateur Scouting: Rob Sumner, Fred Parker
Director, Team Operations: Sean O'Brien
Database Architect and Analyst: David Johnson
Head Coach: Geoff Ward

Sigh. They also apparently don't update their web site regularly.
https://www.nhl.com/flames/team/staff-directory

[Jiri Hrdina]

Here's the scouts:
Pro Scout: Steve Pleau
Head European Pro Scout: Hakan Loob
Amateur Scouts: Jim Cummins (USHL), Terry Doran (OHL), Ari Haanpaa (Europe), Bobbie Hagelin (Europe), Bob MacMillan (QMJHL),Allister MacNeil, Eric Soltys (New England), Reid Jackson, Robert Neuhauser, Billy Powers, Darren Kruger, Patrick Lachance

Do we start to blame Steve Pleau for everything? Pro scouting has seemingly been terrible.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

There was such a small vocal part of our fanbase that has said this for the past 6 years but I would say much more of this forum would have ultimately sided with New Era over GranteedEV in the Bennett debate.

We watched the guy for 6 years and most did not see an elite player who was saddled with bad line mates. Most fans saw a guy who had spurts and flashes of being a top player but for the most part saw a player who tried to make junior moves, take bad penalties, and not finish his chances/plays dying on his stick.

I have always been a Bennett believer but his production in Florida is shocking to me and I do think it is short term. I think he has an even bigger chip on his shoulder than James Neal had when he went over to Edmonton that is helping fuel this run. I think Bennett has a career year next year but I would be surprised if he scored 70+ points. If he does I am happy for him.

I was always surprised they never tried a Bennett-Tkachuk duo who I thought were great compliments for one another and both players thrive when they are under the skin of their opponents.

They tried a lot a Tkachuk-Bennett a couple years ago. I was actually surprised when I looked and saw how much.

In answer to a bunch of other stuff - yes, it’s easy to say they could have traded Monahan and used Bennett, or played Bennett on the second line (instead of Backlund I guess). But that’s ignoring what was going on with those guys at the same time. Monahan has only dipped last year and this one, and Backlund has always been good. Coaches want to win, and developing guys, giving them room, isn;t exactly second nature.

The fact Fla is doing it is, still IMO, is because it’s natural to do it with a new guy. And it worked, like it sometimes does. It’s sort of what happened with Lindholm (when I’m sure he was acquired to be a centre). It’s not the first time, nor is it the last. It may last, it may not. What’s definite is that it wasn’t working here, there was going to be an issue at the expansion draft, and at the bargaining table, and he asked for a trade. So it’s still the best outcome that could be expected. The rest is in the past.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ron Sutter is head of player development.
Not sure what that includes though - including who is ultimately responsible for player development for the players on the main roster.

EDIT: Actually that might be wrong as Ray Edwards is listed as the director of player development.

Assistant General Manager: Craig Conroy
Assistant General Manager: Brad Pascall
Assistant General Manager: Chris Snow
Senior VP, Hockey Operations: Don Maloney
Director, Hockey Administration: Mike Burke
Director, Pro Personnel: Derek MacKinnon
Director, Player Development: Ray Edwards
Player Development: Ron Sutter
Player Assistance: Brian McGrattan
Director, Amateur Scouting: Tod Button
Asst. Directors of Amateur Scouting: Rob Sumner, Fred Parker
Director, Team Operations: Sean O'Brien
Database Architect and Analyst: David Johnson
Head Coach: Geoff Ward

Sigh. They also apparently don't update their web site regularly.
https://www.nhl.com/flames/team/staff-directory

Well that helps. So it must be an internal decision rather than falling on the coaches. Just seemed like up until D.Sutter we were doing the same sorts of things with Sam but D. Sutter would have a bit more experience with hands on with guys like Sam.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Here's the scouts:
Pro Scout: Steve Pleau
Head European Pro Scout: Hakan Loob
Amateur Scouts: Jim Cummins (USHL), Terry Doran (OHL), Ari Haanpaa (Europe), Bobbie Hagelin (Europe), Bob MacMillan (QMJHL),Allister MacNeil, Eric Soltys (New England), Reid Jackson, Robert Neuhauser, Billy Powers, Darren Kruger, Patrick Lachance

Do we start to blame Steve Pleau for everything? Pro scouting has seemingly been terrible.

Your guess is a good as mine, I would assume it would be a collective that follows a certain criteria provided by the Pro Scout and GM.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Definitely. The price tags alone make it a worthy discussion. Monahan is clearly the better goal scorer in the slot and can produce at an elite clip playing run and gun. But he’s just an ok playmaker, brings limited physicality and doesn’t come close to Bennett’s playoff effectiveness.

Bennett on the otherhand is the complete polar opposite. He’s gritty, heavy in the corners, can play in the guts of the game and hits harder and cleaner then any Flame I’ve ever seen. His shot probably keeps him from being an elite goal scorer and he takes bad penalties in the regular season. But he does play playoff style hockey and is willing to fight to get his team’s spirits up.

It’s probably pretty close in the end as both players have flaws and need good linemates to produce. But man, Sam Bennett’s playoff performance last summer was a real eye opener and his lower cap hit probably gives him the edge.

Yes. Bennett drives possession, entries, and exits through the middle of the ice. His shot is a serious weakness but he's scoring most of his goals around the crease anyway. The Flames just really seem to have no idea how valuable a player who can push the play up the middle is.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Here's the scouts:
Pro Scout: Steve Pleau
Head European Pro Scout: Hakan Loob
Amateur Scouts: Jim Cummins (USHL), Terry Doran (OHL), Ari Haanpaa (Europe), Bobbie Hagelin (Europe), Bob MacMillan (QMJHL),Allister MacNeil, Eric Soltys (New England), Reid Jackson, Robert Neuhauser, Billy Powers, Darren Kruger, Patrick Lachance

Do we start to blame Steve Pleau for everything? Pro scouting has seemingly been terrible.

I think it's fair to say that an external audit of the entire hockey ops side can't hurt

[blender]

I'm going to jump in here because this is the thread that is going right now.

I think the Calgary Flames are a very conservative organization. No surprise given where they are based and their ownership group. In a league known for conservative approaches, they are a good fit.

I remember when Treliving was first hired and the talk was all about how prospects needed to ripen in the minors/AHL until they were ready. There was no need to rush a player into the NHL. I remember that every rookie started on the 4th line and earned their spot up the lineup. Defensive depth is needed for a playoff run. A whole bunch of old-fashioned home truths that belong in the past.

Anyone remember Team NA in the world cup? It was a coming out party for young talent in the big leagues and the Flames must have missed the memo. Treliving hired a series of old-school coaches from the Babcock tree (who was himself identified as a past-his-prime dinosaur and was jettisoned in the name of progress) and stuck his fingers in his ears and covered his eyes against any indication that this approach was outmoded.

All that has happened is the league has gotten younger, faster, cheaper while the Flames toil away and fans wonder why our own draft picks don't get a chance to actually play.

I don't know. Flames had one of the best young players in the league, several very good young pieces, a top prospect in Bennett and they chose to overpay gritty washed up veterans to play prime minutes instead.

And they blew it.

What a waste. Hopefully heads roll.