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Old 08-14-2019, 01:15 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
It was both, actually. Stone was blocking Andersson, and Kulak was blocking Valimaki. Hamonic breaking his face in the season opener is what opened up space for Andersson. But Kulak would have remained in Valimaki's way.

Assuming that Valimaki were to outplay Kulak in training camp, what do you do then? You don't really want to bury $900k in the minors, and you don't really want Kulak to be the 7D - especially if the organization wanted Prout there to provide 'toughness' when needed. So the most likely result in this scenario is the Flames trade Kulak anyway.
Assuming Valimaki out plays Kulak in preseason I would probably have wanted to start Valimaki in the AHL because of his age at the time and the waiver flexibility. Thems the breaks on an ELC.

I think the desperation to move Stone should've set in by then so I would've tried to do whatever I could to rid the team of that contract and carried Kulak as the 7th D if Valimaki had/was outplaying him.

That's sort of the point I'm making is that I would've rather spent an asset to move stone than get nothing in return for Kulak. If those are the two options to make the roster work, that's the direction i go in.

Valimaki was the best of the youngsters in camp but at 20 years he was arguably the easiest to justify starting in the AHL. I probably wouldn't have liked it if that's how it went down but I would've understood why.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:20 PM   #122
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Yes, but he didn't make the Flames off the bat and was only recalled after Hamonic broke his jaw in game 1 against the Canucks.

The Flames started with this:

Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Hamonic
Valimaki - Stone
Prout
And Andersson was obviously 6th or better for the rest of the year starting in game #3 and when Hamonic came back after 9 games.

Valimaki was given an NHL look to start the season as there was a chance that he could have been sent back to Tri-City to save a year of his ELC. He apparently showed enough after 9 games but not so much that he didn't need 20 AHL games behind Fattenberg and Prout and of course Andersson.

They got and extra year of ELC slide out of Andersson and Kylington but felt the need for Valimaki to be in the NHL after only one year of slide.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:50 PM   #123
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And Andersson was obviously 6th or better for the rest of the year starting in game #3 and when Hamonic came back after 9 games.

Valimaki was given an NHL look to start the season as there was a chance that he could have been sent back to Tri-City to save a year of his ELC. He apparently showed enough after 9 games but not so much that he didn't need 20 AHL games behind Fattenberg and Prout and of course Andersson.

They got and extra year of ELC slide out of Andersson and Kylington but felt the need for Valimaki to be in the NHL after only one year of slide.
I don’t think he was a contract slide candidate for last year regardless of the 9 game threshold
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:55 PM   #124
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Valimaki was given an NHL look to start the season as there was a chance that he could have been sent back to Tri-City to save a year of his ELC. He apparently showed enough after 9 games but not so much that he didn't need 20 AHL games behind Fattenberg and Prout and of course Andersson..
Valimaki was never returning to the WHL. There was zero chance of that happening. The nine game thing is irrelevant and doesn't apply anyway. He played twenty AHL games after returning from a lengthy injury.

That's a whole lot of errors in a short paragraph.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:56 PM   #125
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I don’t think he was a contract slide candidate for last year regardless of the 9 game threshold
He was:
https://www.capfriendly.com/slides/2019
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:17 PM   #126
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I wonder if my Brent Kulak young guns rookie card has shot up in value too?


Edit-Yup it's more then doubled in value. I paid $0.50 for mine

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRETT-KULAK...4AAOSw5dNWhMAH
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:19 PM   #127
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Valimaki was never returning to the WHL. There was zero chance of that happening. The nine game thing is irrelevant and doesn't apply anyway. He played twenty AHL games after returning from a lengthy injury.

That's a whole lot of errors in a short paragraph.
IF he was over-whelmed by the NHL game in his 9 games there was the option of him returning to the WHL. He wasn't overwhelmed but he wasn't playing at a Heiskanen level either.


How long does it take NHL level players to get their conditioning after an injury and when they are cleared to play? 2 or 3 games max? If he was healthy enough to play in the AHL then he was healthy enough to play in the NHL...

If there was coaching consensus that he would be an upgrade on Fantenberg / Prout pretty obvious he would or at least should have been on the NHL roster getting ready for the playoffs.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:21 PM   #128
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Sorry -- are you suggesting that Kulak should play left wing or something? Backup goalie? Because there is an absolutely miniscule chance that Kulak would have a job in Calgary as a defenseman. He is pitifully mediocre compared to the talent the Flames already have, and keeping him would be the definition of pointless.
You obviously are not talking about last years Kulak, he had a great year.

57 games played, 6 goals, 11 assists, 17 points, +12. He averaged 18 mins a night with 25 mins total PK, and 2:41 total PP on the season.

In only 57 games played he had more hits (107) than any of our defensemen and three game winners, again more than any defensemen on the Calgary Flames.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:26 PM   #129
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IF he was over-whelmed by the NHL game in his 9 games there was the option of him returning to the WHL. He wasn't overwhelmed but he wasn't playing at a Heiskanen level either.
s.
If he was overwhelmed he would've been sent to the AHL. You seem to be missing the point that Valimaki was a late birthday for his draft year, thus being 18 most of his draft season and not the typical 17.

Valimaki turned 20 the second game of the year last season, he was AHL bound. The Flames even announced he was done with the WHL last summer if I recall correctly.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:28 PM   #130
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You obviously are not talking about last years Kulak, he had a great year.

57 games played, 6 goals, 11 assists, 17 points, +12. He averaged 18 mins a night with 25 mins total PK, and 2:41 total PP on the season.

In only 57 games played he had more hits (107) than any of our defensemen and three game winners, again more than any defensemen on the Calgary Flames.
Game-winning goals aren't a reliable stat on which to judge players, they fluctuate heavily from year-to-year. Same with plus-minus.

And it's great that Kulak is performing well, but I venture that, given a similar opportunity, Hanifin, Valimaki, and even Kylington would perform just as well, especially playing with a defenseman as good as Shea Weber (as Kulak did). Heck, look at what Rasmus Andersson did playing with Giordano this year. That's essentially what Kulak did, to a lesser extent, playing with Weber.

The point is, there is very little room at the NHL level in Calgary for a player like Brett Kulak. Who would he play with, and where? Would he be mediocre on the third pairing again? He certainly wouldn't have the benefit of playing with an All-Star partner. All he'd be doing is sucking up ice-time from better bets like Kylington and Valimaki, players with much more runway and potential for the future.

It's like saying the Flames should have kept Hathaway instead of giving more opportunity to Mangiapane and Dube. Sure, it might have been preferable not to lose Hathaway for nothing, but at the end of the day, it clears out a logjam and allows the Flames to promote guys who have higher upside.
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Holland made transactions which have been a net positive for the Oilers, including his massive, massive, massive Grade A trade of Milan Lucic to the Calgary Flames for James Neal.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:38 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
Game-winning goals aren't a reliable stat on which to judge players, they fluctuate heavily from year-to-year. Same with plus-minus.

And it's great that Kulak is performing well, but I venture that, given a similar opportunity, Hanifin, Valimaki, and even Kylington would perform just as well, especially playing with a defenseman as good as Shea Weber (as Kulak did). Heck, look at what Rasmus Andersson did playing with Giordano this year. That's essentially what Kulak did, to a lesser extent, playing with Weber.

The point is, there is very little room at the NHL level in Calgary for a player like Brett Kulak. Who would he play with, and where? Would he be mediocre on the third pairing again? He certainly wouldn't have the benefit of playing with an All-Star partner. All he'd be doing is sucking up ice-time from better bets like Kylington and Valimaki, players with much more runway and potential for the future.

It's like saying the Flames should have kept Hathaway instead of giving more opportunity to Mangiapane and Dube. Sure, it might have been preferable not to lose Hathaway for nothing, but at the end of the day, it clears out a logjam and allows the Flames to promote guys who have higher upside.
Nope, you're wrong. In the last 40 games of the season Kulak did not see any ice time at all with Shea Weber as his partner. Guess he might be a little better than you're giving him credit for?

Quarter Line Combination
First quarter: Did not play

Second quarter:
KULAK,BRETT - WEBER,SHEA
BENN,JORDIE - KULAK,BRETT
KULAK,BRETT - PETRY,JEFF

Third quarter:
BENN,JORDIE - KULAK,BRETT
KULAK,BRETT - REILLY,MIKE
KULAK,BRETT - PETRY,JEFF

Fourth quarter:
KULAK,BRETT - PETRY,JEFF
FOLIN,CHRISTIAN - KULAK,BRETT
BENN,JORDIE - KULAK,BRETT
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:49 PM   #132
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Alright, thanks for that -- although, to be fair, the dropoff from Weber to Petry is slim, if there's any at all. Both guys are top-pairing quality. Kulak would've been playing with either Andersson or Stone here, if he'd been playing at all. And no, Kulak is still not great, nor would he be a better bet for the future than any of the four LHD ahead of him in Calgary. He's a fine but replaceable defender who, once again, the Flames had no room for.

Here's an album of Kulak's metrics vs. his competition in Calgary.

https://imgur.com/a/t0qyW5L
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Holland made transactions which have been a net positive for the Oilers, including his massive, massive, massive Grade A trade of Milan Lucic to the Calgary Flames for James Neal.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:38 PM   #133
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He would have played every game last year that Fantenberg and Kylington played as he is better than both at this time. So we would have used him then

He would also be the odds on favorite to start with the team now that Valimaki is hurt long term. So again he would be useful to have here

We also wouldn’t have needed to trade a fourth round pick to replace his role, and picks are always valuable, so again he would have been useful to have at that point.

Also go ahead and backup this claim that he is pittifully mediocre compared to Valimaki, Kylington, Davidson, Valiev etc because underlying numbers from last season directly contradict that claim.

If it was pointless to keep him why did the team make him contract offers?
They put him on waivers twice, he wasnt playing for calgary.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:16 PM   #134
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Alright, thanks for that -- although, to be fair, the dropoff from Weber to Petry is slim,
Never thought I would hear that.


I haven't really watched/kept up with Montreal, but I'm skeptical. Might just be the oilers legacy still clouding my perception.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:27 PM   #135
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A lot of it is that Weber isn't the defenseman he once was. They're both good top-pair options though.
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Holland made transactions which have been a net positive for the Oilers, including his massive, massive, massive Grade A trade of Milan Lucic to the Calgary Flames for James Neal.
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:17 PM   #136
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Once you go to arbitration as a depth player with almost all teams, your tenure is basically over. Treliving is no different. As soon as the hearing started Kulak's Flames career was inevitably over.

Unfortunately we don't know what offers were presented and rejected prior to the hearing, but I would have been comfortable with the Flames offering up to $1,025,000 on a one-way contract given at the time I recommended Kulak was a solid #6/7 with #4 potential. I'm guessing Kulak's camp would have been happy with that and likely less even, but that the Flames didn't come anywhere near it for whatever reason.

Too bad it got to where it did given Kulak was clearly ahead of Kylington, Stone, and Prout at the time, and with Valimaki likely needing 1/2 to a full season in the minors to get acclimated to the pro game...but it is what it is. The Flames (probably) nickeling and diming Kulak ultimately cost them a legitimate third pairing defenseman and the fourth-round pick they wasted for 18 games of Fantenberg. Not a huge error but an unforced error nonetheless.
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:39 PM   #137
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Sometimes when you change workplaces you just 'click' better with your co-workers and your bosses, so your performance naturally improves, too.
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