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Old 08-09-2019, 01:01 PM   #101
Jore
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Keep in mind that Gaudreau is a pretty big liability with respect to zone exits. Sure, if they can get the puck to him in the neutral zone, then he is elite at zone entries. But having him on your line, with respect to zone exits, is a liability.

This is an example of why stats have to be taken in context.
With all due respect, I've seen pretty much every game Gaudreau has played since he joined the team in the last 2014 season game against the Canucks, and I don't know how you can say this.



The problem for the Flames isn't that Gaudreau is a "liability" in zone exits. He's actually among the best in the league at it. It's the Flames lack the ability on that line to dig down low and recover the puck and possibly get past the opposition F1 forechecker to open up options for zone exits. Monahan has never done a convincing job at it, and in the regular season deferring to Gaudreau all the time is fine, but we all see what happens with tighter checking in the playoffs.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:14 PM   #102
Enoch Root
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Well if you've watched pretty much every game...

Seriously though, Johnny can't take a pass on the wall. He's terrible at it, and easy to cover. What he is great at, is moving the puck through the zones, once he has possession.

Nonetheless, he definitely puts pressure on the other players on the ice in his own zone.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:17 PM   #103
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Also, that graphic is just another example of how mindnumbingly misleading some of these charts can be.

Johnny score a 97 - ninety-frickin-seven - for Possession exits per 60. THat is because, when he has the puck and opportunity to exit, he immediately enters Johnny-Wizard mode.

However, when it comes to important defensive zone things, like retrieving pucks, he isn't much help to his poor centerman or defensemen.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:39 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Keep in mind that Gaudreau is a pretty big liability with respect to zone exits. Sure, if they can get the puck to him in the neutral zone, then he is elite at zone entries. But having him on your line, with respect to zone exits, is a liability.

This is an example of why stats have to be taken in context.
I will give you that Gaudreau is weak at "stationary exits" - those plays where the winger has to find the outlet man from the boards. However I would also say that he is more likely to execute this play finding a streaking Brodie or Giordano (defenseman) or Lindholm (far side winger) than he is to find Monahan(the guy you'd actually expect to be getting open down the middle). This is a pretty fundamental breakout play here and I don't think Monahan pulls his weight regularily enough relative to the top end guys Jore mentioned. If Monahan were centering Tkachuk and Frolik, would I trust their ability to break the puck out the way I do Backlund? I wouldn't. If someone like Jack Eichel were centering Gaudreau and Lindholm, would I expect their breakouts to be far more consistent and efficient? I think I would, and I would have said that long before seeing the above chart.

I think it's valid to say that Gaudreau is weak in some defensive areas, but you're really deflecting some pretty valid criticism off Monahan's defensive/transition game. His go-to breakout play is making a stretch pass from behind his hashmarks hoping to catch his wingers... sometimes it's a good play too but sometimes you need something more too. I believe that the vast majority of centers on this top 20 list, as well as a handful missing from the list are far more capable of escaping pressure and generating controlled breakouts through the middle as is typically expected of the position - even if Gaudreau has a weakness WRT stationary breakouts. Despite being taller, Patrick Kane has pretty much had all the same issues that Gaudreau has in the defensive zone. Yet he's had success with Toews that extended to the postseason because of Toews' more dynamic 200 foot game. Toews has also had success away from Kane with more stationary wingers because of his speed.

Ideally our top line wingers might be Tkachuk and Lindholm allowing Gaudreau to wreak havoc on line two - but can Monahan be the guy down the middle for those wingers? Barkov can. Eichel can. Aho can. Toews can.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:31 PM   #105
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I just can't bring myself to definitively judge this guy without first seeing him enter a post season fully healthy.

I don't think we've seen that yet, given that he's been nursing something for the better part of a few years, finally gets healthy but then breaks a thumb in the spring.

He always looks FAR better in the first 3-4 months of the season than the last 3-4 because of, I imagine, something that's nagging coming up.

Him and Gaudreau typically get league wide recognition and enter conversations for one of the tops in the league every fall to christmas, but then the chatter fades away later on as they do.

I really want to see these guys stay healthy and confident down the stretch to gauge what their actual potential is.
Not poking the bear on this whole thing but isn't the first couple months of the season typically the easiest part of the season - playoff races aren't fully ramped up, defenses are maybe a bit easier on the opposition, etc.?

Before I get jumped on I'm not saying there is zero effort during the regular season, but surely competition on the ice escalates as season progresses/the playoff's near.
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Old 08-10-2019, 01:58 AM   #106
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The entire league enters the post season tired and nursing injuries. I just can’t buy that our players, Monahan or otherwise, have been somehow unlucky in this regard.
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:55 PM   #107
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The entire league enters the post season tired and nursing injuries. I just canít buy that our players, Monahan or otherwise, have been somehow unlucky in this regard.
Maybe. Is generally being fatigued, having muscle strains, being dinged up etc. the same as broken bones?
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:39 PM   #108
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The entire league enters the post season tired and nursing injuries. I just canít buy that our players, Monahan or otherwise, have been somehow unlucky in this regard.
and 8 teams out of 31 made it past the first round...I would give these guys another shot
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:05 PM   #109
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Tampa Bay had a record type season and arguably fared worse than us. You've got to roll with the process of figuring this #### out. At least we have a core that probably has that potential in them at some point. We're better off than a good number of teams going forward. So how bout sitting back and enjoying the ride, rather than continually dwelling on past results and ragging on how bad it was? 18/19 has been in the ground for quite some time now.

A lot of years it's just a crapshoot to predict anyways. Which also means that one year we're probably going to catch lightning in a bottle and be the beneficiary of said crapshoot. So be patient, disgruntled ones.

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Old 08-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #110
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Maybe. Is generally being fatigued, having muscle strains, being dinged up etc. the same as broken bones?
I donít know. Do you know the condition of the players they are playing against? I canít imagine a team healthier than the Flames were last year. I think this team has more to give in the playoffs, but personally Iím not looking at injuries as the area for improvement.
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Old 08-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #111
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and 8 teams out of 31 made it past the first round...I would give these guys another shot
Yep. So would I.
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