[Rumour] UPD: Flames are done for the day. Zucker deal does not go through

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Maybe if Calgary had a SCF and 2 conference finals appearances in the previous 4 years they would get a pass?

Maybe. But the team finished second overall, and in non-fluky fashion (it wasn't at all like Hartley's miracle season). In fact, they did so with substandard goaltending out of Smith and a back hole in Neal.

So they had a bum series, and Mackinnon played out of his mind for a while. I'm not prepared to say the regular season was a mirage.

Do they have weak spots? Sure. But they also played a number of rookies plus Hanifin, the top line had a brand new guy on it, and Rittich was essentially a rookie starter as well. So I think they have some upward mobility just in the experience department. I also think Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm and Tkachuk have yet another gear to find.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ wow. Another gear from the top guys like Monahan and Lindholm?

That is pretty optimistic

(I generally agree with the post, and its gist, but I don’t expect another step change out of some guys who had career years. Hope I’m wrong!)

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ wow. Another gear from the top guys like Monahan and Lindholm?

That is pretty optimistic

They're just entering the prime of their careers now, it's not that outrageous to suggest

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ wow. Another gear from the top guys like Monahan and Lindholm?

That is pretty optimistic

(I generally agree with the post, and its gist, but I don’t expect another step change out of some guys who had career years. Hope I’m wrong!)

I think the expectation of a higher gear comes in the form of thinking that Gaudreau, Monahan and Lidholm have a hell of a lot more to offer in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think the expectation of a higher gear comes in the form of thinking that Gaudreau, Monahan and Lidholm have a hell of a lot more to offer in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

If that’s the case, then I absolutely agree

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe. But the team finished second overall, and in non-fluky fashion (it wasn't at all like Hartley's miracle season). In fact, they did so with substandard goaltending out of Smith and a back hole in Neal.

So they had a bum series, and Mackinnon played out of his mind for a while. I'm not prepared to say the regular season was a mirage.

Do they have weak spots? Sure. But they also played a number of rookies plus Hanifin, the top line had a brand new guy on it, and Rittich was essentially a rookie starter as well. So I think they have some upward mobility just in the experience department. I also think Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm and Tkachuk have yet another gear to find.

So the discussion started by saying I think the team would have been much better if the Zucker and Kadri trades that appeared to be fully complete did not fall through for the mystery reason with Zucker and the NTC with Kadri.

I did not say the team was bad but I liked the roster more with those players along with Lucic added and Frolik, Brodie, Jankowski, Neal removed. The comment came in that this was the second overall team in the league and still a great roster. I agree with that but the fact this team got slapped around by a team nearly 20pts below them in the standings is probably a reason they are not the consensus to repeat as a top 2 team in the west.

Further to that we have witnessed the following swings.

13/14: 77pts
14/15: 97pts
15/16: 77pts
16/17: 94pts
17/18: 84pts
18/19: 107pts

Based on the last 6 seasons this team is poised to take a step back. They won the west with no key injuries last year and tough to expect that to happen again. Adding another proven top 6 forward and top 2 line C would have really complimented the team and had them looking that much deeper and better heading into this season

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think the expectation of a higher gear comes in the form of thinking that Gaudreau, Monahan and Lidholm have a hell of a lot more to offer in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

That's exactly what meant.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So the discussion started by saying I think the team would have been much better if the Zucker and Kadri trades that appeared to be fully complete did not fall through for the mystery reason with Zucker and the NTC with Kadri.

I did not say the team was bad but I liked the roster more with those players along with Lucic added and Frolik, Brodie, Jankowski, Neal removed. The comment came in that this was the second overall team in the league and still a great roster. I agree with that but the fact this team got slapped around by a team nearly 20pts below them in the standings is probably a reasThe on they are not the consensus to repeat as a top 2 team in the west.

Further to that we have witnessed the following swings.

13/14: 77pts
14/15: 97pts
15/16: 77pts
16/17: 94pts
17/18: 84pts
18/19: 107pts

Based on the last 6 seasons this team is poised to take a step back. They won the west with no key injuries last year and tough to expect that to happen again. Adding another proven top 6 forward and top 2 line C would have really complimented the team and had them looking that much deeper and better heading into this season

The thing is that the earlier decent seasons, especially 14-15, were smoke and mirrors. In Hartley's season everything that could go right did, including a ton of come from behind wins. Analytics said they were bad, and the next year they regressed. GG's PO year was also a bit wacky - they had extended bad stretches. Like I said in my post, last year just didn't feel like a fluke to me. I thought they played good hockey and were rewarded. So I guess ink your premise is flawed.

[TheScorpion]

The Hartley team was odd in that it featured a number of career-renaissance-type seasons from guys who seemed very unlikely to repeat them.

Jiri Hudler, Dennis Wideman, David Jones, Kris Russell, Lance Bouma, and Josh Jooris all had career-highlight seasons—but they aren't exactly the kind of players you need to rely on for that consistent excellence.

Now, guys like Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Elias Lindholm, Matthew Tkachuk, Mark Giordano, Rasmus Andersson, and Noah Hanifin are all coming off career-best seasons, PLUS those kinds of ancillary guys like Derek Ryan, Mark Jankowski, etc. That's how you win -- you need your stars chugging, not lucky seasons from aging vets.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe. But the team finished second overall, and in non-fluky fashion (it wasn't at all like Hartley's miracle season). In fact, they did so with substandard goaltending out of Smith and a back hole in Neal.

So they had a bum series, and Mackinnon played out of his mind for a while. I'm not prepared to say the regular season was a mirage.

Do they have weak spots? Sure. But they also played a number of rookies plus Hanifin, the top line had a brand new guy on it, and Rittich was essentially a rookie starter as well. So I think they have some upward mobility just in the experience department. I also think Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm and Tkachuk have yet another gear to find.

I've never given it a thought.

Both are very real.

Great season with some consistency that faded down the stretch somewhat and waned into the playoffs.

Good season.
Terrible series.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

If that’s the case, then I absolutely agree

I keep coming back to that Monahan quote with Steinberg.

Something to the effect of "I need to become a completely different player"

Couple that with Conroy calling him out on the morning show, and I hope a message has been delivered about being harder to play against. He doesn't have to be a banger, but the odd face wash wouldn't hurt. I think he quietly goes to the right places, but maybe drive the net once and a while.

[GioforPM]

Yeah, that quote from Monahan (and one by Treliving about Monahan as well) makes me think Monahan may well be working on his 200 foot game and his aggressiveness on the puck on the O-zone as well. And that's what made me say what I did.

I think Tkachuk has another possible gear just because of his age. I think Gaudreau is a smart hockey player who is always thinking about new stuff. And Lindholm now has a season here under his belt. His new gear might also be as a full time C.

[united]

https://flamesnation.ca/2019/12/24/b...tmas-wishlist/


Calgary had a deal agreed upon in principle with the Minnesota Wild just ahead of February’s trade deadline that would have seen them acquire Jason Zucker. However, things got tied up after Treliving signed off on a deal that reportedly would have sent Michael Frolik and a first round pick to Minnesota. In doing some digging on both sides, my understanding is things bogged down once Treliving sent the deal up the food chain. I’m not sure if it was a money issue, an issue with giving up a first rounder, or something else, but it truly was out of his hands.

[btimbit]

Again? How many times is that going to effing happen

[Strange Brew]

^ Pretty damn interesting. Frolik only makes $3 million this year so was Flames ownership tired of essentially eating money? Zucker actually gets paid $6.25 million in 2019/20.

Or were they reluctant to keep running a draft pick deficit?

My hunch? It’s the money.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by united

https://flamesnation.ca/2019/12/24/b...tmas-wishlist/


Calgary had a deal agreed upon in principle with the Minnesota Wild just ahead of February’s trade deadline that would have seen them acquire Jason Zucker. However, things got tied up after Treliving signed off on a deal that reportedly would have sent Michael Frolik and a first round pick to Minnesota. In doing some digging on both sides, my understanding is things bogged down once Treliving sent the deal up the food chain. I’m not sure if it was a money issue, an issue with giving up a first rounder, or something else, but it truly was out of his hands.

Does he now have full autonomy on his new contract signed in October?

[Strange Brew]

I don’t imagine any GM has the ability to spend $3 million of the owners money without asking.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Does he now have full autonomy on his new contract signed in October?

I would hope so. Frankly, I imagine it would be frustrating to do the work to orchestrate a deal and then have to go back and tell your friends that the deal is off because your parents said you werent allowed to come out and play.

I would want that authorization set in stone before doing the work to broker the deal in the first place.

[AC]

Wasn't the report that Treliving was finally given full autonomy the LAST time he signed?

From 2017:

Friedman says the Bishop deal to Calgary last summer was killed by Flames ownership:

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/fr...p-last-summer/

Quote:
“And you’ll remember last year Ben Bishop thought he was going to Calgary. He thought he had a six-year deal worth somewhere between $36-39 million and that deal was killed by Calgary ownership at the end of the day.

There was a similar report that ownership killed a potential Seguin trade back in 2013.

Originally Posted by AC

Add the reports of Treliving needing Ken King's approval to trade for Bishop again at the deadline and not getting an answer in time...

Kinda amazing Treliving even wanted to come back.

Though it sounds like his new contract comes with a guarantee of no Ken King meddling:

@LarryFisher_KDC
Big condition in Brad Treliving's new contract/re-signing with #Flames was full autonomy, meaning he can now make moves without King consent

I guess he doesn't need Ken King's permission but still needs Murray Edwards'? I'm sure it's not unusual around the NHL, but it's frustrating hearing about all the close calls the teams has to big trades that could have made a significant difference falling through because of ownership issues.

That Bishop trade and extension would have happened the year that Elliott #### the bed in the playoffs against Anaheim.

[dammage79]

And he would have gotten away with it too if it werent for those meddling owners!

Is giving up Pelletier too much of a kicker for Zucker to be the upgrade on Frolik? I dont know.

And we dodged a bullet with Bishop too IMO.

The one thing I dont like about tree is his penchant for dealing 1sts like candy when the organizational depth was not optimal.

Still dont like the Hamonic trade, felt very unnecessary. The Hamilton trade was worth it, but man would Barzal look good in this core. But we got Lindholm and Hanifin out of it so I'm okay with that.

Honestly, I'm kind of glad whoever nixed things, did. 1sets aren't pez.

[CaptainYooh]

In any privately-owned business, the owners dictate the limits of GM's authority on new acquisitions. NHL business is not that different. The owners own the team. It's absolutely their prerogative to approve or disapprove significant trades. If Katz wants Yakupov against all the advice he's been given by his minions, Katz gets Yakupov. If Edwards didn't like Zucker deal, he didn't approve it. His reasons don't really matter.