Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Locke

Exactly this. Francis was literally filmed throwing away questions that were not aligned to the theme of the interview. He chose which questions were asked. Literally hand-picked them.

Wow...

That's Oileresque.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There's a lot that can be said and refuted for sure.

But I would think claiming to be a revenue sharing recipient for the first time in x # of years would be a dangerous fib.

It can be refuted from far too many out of market angles if he made that up.

I would believe it. Not icing a competitive team for a number of years will do that.

[monkeyman]

Isn’t it only the top 10 teams that pay into revenue sharing? So if the flames were 11th, they wouldn’t be paying in, but also not getting much back. Devil is in the details, and again, we’re left with few. And judging from the arena history thread, we’ve never received the full story, certainly not from the Flames.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There's a lot that can be said and refuted for sure.

But I would think claiming to be a revenue sharing recipient for the first time in x # of years would be a dangerous fib.

It can be refuted from far too many out of market angles if he made that up.

Maybe it's more pertinent to understand exactly how much revenue sharing they qualified for? I think your analysis has already determined that the franchise on a whole is a losing venture since they're not in the list of: Toronto, New York, Chicago and Boston.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Ice_Weasel

This may surprise you, but the majority of people I talk to are actually pro-Flames through all of this. Not that King is doing a great job or anything, but he's just the messenger, not the message. Those that are ok with the message can ignore the messenger...those that don't like the message want to hang messenger.

Interested to meet these types. I'm curious to see what sort of fans these are. Business exec/'tier ones', or middle class taxpayers? Probably no Nenshi fans there.

Then again you'd expect the ultra-pro-Flames crowd to congregate at such events. That opinion does not appear to be popular outside those doors. Just look at the polls in here. King needs to get out more I think.

Personally, my problem is fully with the message. As a (pretty hardcore) fan, I've not been impressed at all with the owners tactic and attitude as transmitted through King. Although I think the messenger makes it come across even worse. He's contradicted himself at every turn and gave us false promises through the entire process. Hard not to be turned off by that.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Locke

Exactly this. Francis was literally filmed throwing away questions that were not aligned to the theme of the interview. He chose which questions were asked. Literally hand-picked them.

I am not surprised after that open mic train wreck that was a few weeks ago

[Rubicant]

Wouldn't the Flames receiving revenue sharing largely be due to the fact the Canadian dollar has been so low relative the American dollar for the last couple of years?

Also - Forbes has them as 10th in operating income (basically profit... I think) which means even if their revenues have dipped into the bottom half of teams, they are still faring very well. Perhaps it's because of the sweetheart arena deal they currently have at the Saddledome - as they are always on the high side of player payrolls.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Isn’t it only the top 10 teams that pay into revenue sharing? So if the flames were 11th, they wouldn’t be paying in, but also not getting much back. Devil is in the details, and again, we’re left with few. And judging from the arena history thread, we’ve never received the full story, certainly not from the Flames.

Apparently it is top 10 teams that pay into it, bottom 15 teams get cheques. If this article is accurate.

I mean it really doesn't mean much aside from other teams make more money than the Flames. We know that. It doesn't say anything about the overall profitability of the franchise. It could mean that the league as a whole is doing much better.

We don't really know unless the Flames show us the books (they won't).

[Ice_Weasel]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Personally, my problem is fully with the message. As a (pretty hardcore) fan, I've not been impressed at all with the owners tactic and attitude as transmitted through King. Although I think the messenger makes it come across even worse. He's contradicted himself at every turn and gave us false promises through the entire process. Hard not to be turned off by that.

Which is kind of my point....it could be Megan Fox delivering the message topless and it really wouldn't matter. If anything, the owners are doing a great job of getting people who don't like the message to focus on the messenger.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Locke

Exactly this. Francis was literally filmed throwing away questions that were not aligned to the theme of the interview. He chose which questions were asked. Literally hand-picked them.

Do you have proof of this? Did you get to read the questions not asked? Did it maybe occur to you that the questions shelved were ones he had already asked, had on his list of questions, were duplicates from the ones submitted, or questions focused on something King explicit said he would no longer answer questions about? That is the job of the moderator at an event like this. That is more likely than anything. Occam's razor and all.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by New Era

Do you have proof of this? Did you get to read the questions not asked? Did it maybe occur to you that the questions shelved were ones he had already asked, had on his list of questions, were duplicates from the ones submitted, or questions focused on something King explicit said he would no longer answer questions about? That is the job of the moderator at an event like this. That is more likely than anything. Occam's razor and all.

He literally read questions and then threw them over his shoulder. I dont need a source, it was on Video.

Now, this wasnt a Congressional Hearing or anything, hes fully allowed to do that and I assume he did it out of expediency if nothing else assuming that King wouldnt answer them anyways and with limited time wanted to move along.

But he still cherry-picked the questions.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by New Era

Do you have proof of this? Did you get to read the questions not asked? Did it maybe occur to you that the questions shelved were ones he had already asked, had on his list of questions, were duplicates from the ones submitted, or questions focused on something King explicit said he would no longer answer questions about? That is the job of the moderator at an event like this. That is more likely than anything. Occam's razor and all.

Seriously how the hell can you be so protective of them? Is Ken King your father?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Ice_Weasel

This may surprise you, but the majority of people I talk to are actually pro-Flames through all of this.

Who are you talking to? I don't come across many people on their side on this, including people on a Flames message board.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Locke

He literally read questions and then threw them over his shoulder. I dont need a source, it was on Video.

Now, this wasnt a Congressional Hearing or anything, hes fully allowed to do that and I assume he did it out of expediency if nothing else assuming that King wouldnt answer them anyways and with limited time wanted to move along.

But he still cherry-picked the questions.

Ken King was clear that he wouldn't answer questions about the arena. Why would Francis waste any more time on those questions? He tried a few and King didn't answer. This is just people trying to make a big deal over nothing again.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Locke

Overall, other than a couple of cringe-worthy moments this was a very good public moment for King and the Flames.

This was more vintage King without him putting his foot in his mouth. Okay, its largely due to Francis lobbing him softballs, but it was Orders of Magnitude better than his last few.

Hopefully this keeps the doors open.

Granted I wasn't able to watch the stream, but is this really the case?

Just having trouble imagining how he can come off looking decent, given the entire premise of this event was a bit of a farce. Really just seems like a half handed way to talk about the Flames needing an arena without wanting to talk about the subject or give specifics if the discussion went outside of their comfort zone.

[trublmaker]

Why don't they have a single share sale ala the green bay packers. X number of shares for for a couple hundred where all the money raised goes to the arena cost. I'd buy one

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Muta

I don't like this passive-aggressive relocation stance by the Flames. I'm sure the owners are outlining this stance in Ken's ear. He's their mouthpiece at this point.

A classy approach to the arena issue would be to say that the Flames are always interested in negotiating a deal and will always come to the table when ideas can be shared and discussed, even if it's not what they want right away. That continued dialogue is how deals get done. They should know that, considering they sign contracts with millionaire players every single year.

This 'case closed' stuff is incredibly disrespectful to the fans that have supported their butts for over 30 years. I think Ken, and the owners, need a lesson in humility and not to bite the hand that feeds them, but that is exactly what they're doing with these threats.

I don't think I agree.
This is already a huge distraction to the start of the season. I am weary of it being a bigger story than the upcoming season. Enough now.
Is this the end of all negotiations? Of course not.
Is it enough for now? Absolutely.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But I would think claiming to be a revenue sharing recipient for the first time in x # of years would be a dangerous fib.

Why would it be dangerous? Who, that King couldn't credibly claim wasn't misinformed, would be able to refute that? and why would they?

If he were proved to be fibbing what are the consequences? Does he go to jail? No, Does he get fired? Why would they fire him if they're making money (important thing to remember... even if he's telling the whole truth all that would mean was that it was the first time in years they weren't top 10 in revenue, cry me a river... considering how often they drafted top 10 in those x # of years)? cost to his credibility? That all his other half truths and fabrications didn't already drain?

If the Flames want to try and cry poverty they can go ahead and do that... show the public your audited books before asking for a public bailout (and maybe don't have the guy responsible for producing that outcome, AKA the President of the Company, be the one asking for it). Seriously, if Ken King is claiming poverty on behalf of the Flames AFAIK he's saying "look at what a bad job I'm doing".

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Seriously how the hell can you be so protective of them? Is Ken King your father?

Protective? How about just a sense of decorum? Calling the man a liar about his meeting with a dying woman? Claiming they were not reading questions that would make the team look bad? Claiming Ken King eats babies and ####s chemical weapons? Did I miss something that seems like reasonable comments directed at Ken King or this event? I would be doing the exact same thing for Nenshi if the shoe was on the other foot. Focus on the issues and not make this personal. It was once a big badge of honor around here to shake Ken King's hand. But that was before everyone became experts in the economics of the game, the finances of the city, and the negotiations going on behind closed doors. I'll give all parties involved a pass with a lot of what is said in the media, because it is all posturing. Everyone should do the same.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Granted I wasn't able to watch the stream, but is this really the case?

Just having trouble imagining how he can come off looking decent, given the entire premise of this event was a bit of a farce. Really just seems like a half handed way to talk about the Flames needing an arena without wanting to talk about the subject or give specifics if the discussion went outside of their comfort zone.

He did what he was good at and played 'For the Feels.'

Their financial premise is still flawed and wildly at odds with the City, but this was 'Vintage King' making you feel good about the Flames and CSEC.

Lets be honest, this entire struggle is because we love the Flames, we identify with them, they are part of our City, we just cant be expected to buy them a new home.

'Vintage King' and the Flames want a 'Vintage Arena Deal' like what Edmonton got a couple years ago, their only problem is that Calgary and Edmonton, for all of our similarities, are not the same in instances like this. Calgary is unlikely to be cajoled like a bunch of country rubes and thats frustrating for them.