Yeah, maybe you can de-escalate for hours, but I'm not convinced you are going to arrive at a different outcome. Perhaps the best way to deal with this situation is for the officer to go back to his cruiser and radio in for a larger response, but one could argue that it would be escalation at that point?
How can you possible say that? You wait two minutes, get another cop car to block in the vehicle, and it can't flee - you changed the outcome. That (and an officer involved shooting) is the outcome you're trying to prevent. Again public safety should be top priority, that means doing everything to ensure he doesn't flee and hit someone.
Even if he wants to do a 50 point turn to get around the cops blocking him in, that's when breaking the window might actually allow you to stop him from fleeing. Not when all he has to do is put his foot on the gas.
This isn't about stopping his window from being smashed, I don't give one #### about that, it's about him not speeding away and crashing into an innocent person. Imagine if your loved one was driven over by the criminal, all because some cop couldn't wait another two minutes instead going into an emotional angry tantrum like a 2 year old.
Again, what actually happens in two more minutes is that the guy calls his lawyer and his lawyer tells him to get the #### out of the car. Meanwhile another officer is there to block in the car, provide assistance to the responding officer, and potentially possibly provides some assurance that this isn't a single dirty officer acting outside of the force if that's what the driver actually believes. There is no harm in waiting, keeping his emotions cool, but we do know there was huge potential for harm by escalating it.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-22-2020 at 03:04 PM.
How can you possible say that? You wait two minutes, get another cop car to block in the vehicle, and it can't flee. That (and an officer involved shooting) is the outcome you're trying to prevent. Again public safety should be top priority, that means doing everything to ensure he doesn't flee and hit someone.
Even if he wants to do a 50 point turn to get around the cops blocking him in, that's when breaking the window might actually allow you to stop him from fleeing. Not when all he has to do is put his foot on the gas.
This isn't about stopping his window from being smashed, I don't give one #### about that, it's about him not speeding away and crashing into an innocent person. Imagine if you're loved one was driven over by the criminal, all because some cop couldn't wait another two minutes.
Perhaps, but for all we know there was another cruiser there. You and I know very very little about the situation. Even then, if the other cruiser does not block him in right, the guy could ram, resulting in an even unsafer situation.
We can go throught the variety of outcomes that possibly could or could have happened, but there really are 2 sides to this coin. If you want to say that the officer is ABSOLUTELY at fault from what you derived from just the video, I'm afraid that it is my opinion that you are drawing conclusions from an incomplete story.
Perhaps, but for all we know there was another cruiser there. You and I know very very little about the situation. Even then, if the other cruiser does not block him in right, the guy could ram, resulting in an even unsafer situation.
We can go throught the variety of outcomes that possibly could or could have happened, but there really are 2 sides to this coin. If you want to say that the officer is ABSOLUTELY at fault from what you derived from just the video, I'm afraid that it is my opinion that you are making conclusions from an incomplete story.
There wasn't another officer there, and there wasn't a police car in front of it because it wouldn't have been able to drive through. We can see this in the video. Making up a narrative that exonerates the officer which we know isn't true doesn't do anything
We have the video, we saw the officer go into a tantrum that caused the driver to flee. We can judge him on that, and we should. He failed his duty to public safety, and that's the worst thing an officer can do outside of being actively corrupt.
And again and again I ask where is the harm in waiting? Instead there's just a bunch of jokes about filibustering but cool, let them filibust, add resisting arrest and another two years to their sentence, while you take all the time required to prevent harm to public safety which in this case is ensuring he can't flee.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-22-2020 at 03:16 PM.
There wasn't another officer there, and there wasn't a police car in front of it because it wouldn't have been able to drive through. We can see this in the video. Making up a narrative that exonerates the officer which we know isn't true doesn't do anything
We have the video, we saw the officer go into a tantrum that caused the driver to flee. We can judge him on that, and we should. He failed his duty to public safety, and that's the worse thing an officer can do outside of being actively corrupt.
Likewise, making up a narrative that assumes guilt of the officer doesn't do anything either. Maybe there could be another cruiser behind the other officer's cruiser? Maybe there isn't another cruiser available? Again, we know very little about the situation.
I honestly would not call that a tantrum; maybe we have different definitions of what a tantrum is. We should judge people on a whole story, not a small video clip. We have a very little amount of information that indicates what happened before that. Otherwise, one would just be short sighted.
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I'm judging him for his actions on the video and the actual outcome. Neither are making up anything. What?
And not another cruiser available? Lol. "Minority resisting arrest and may become physical" would have the entirety of CPS there within 5 minutes and half of Edmonton's. But seriously, the second he needed to pull out his gun, then this is a highly dangerous situation and cruisers will be available.
Sorry guys, no one is going to tell me that a police being able to have a tantrum is more important than public safety. If he can't keep his emotions in check when it comes to public safety, he's a #### officer and/or has poor training. We should be able to criticize that.
Unless someone wants to tell me the harm in waiting another 5 minutes, or even another 6 days, I don't see a reason to keep debating why I feel like public safety should be the number one priority of the police.
I also do think that it's pathetic that the expectation that our police should be able to keep calm, civilized and not escalate the situation is the controversial opinion in Calgary. There are a lot of police departments, especially in Europe, where that's the bare minimum requirement. We're to accustomed to crappy officers/departments that we've normalized hissy fits as solid police practice.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-22-2020 at 03:34 PM.
I'm judging him for his actions on the video and the actual outcome. Neither are making up anything. What?
And not another cruiser available? Lol. "Minority resisting arrest and may become physical" would have the entirety of CPS there within 5 minutes and half of Edmonton's.
If you judge him solely from the video, I understand your opinion, but I disagree with certain things due to what I read in the CPS press release. I honestly like to judge based on a whole story, not a paragraph or snippet.
The actual outcome is that he got away and no one was injured in the process, correct? Maybe let's leave it at that and not consider the possibility of things that you mentioned such as loved ones being in the way, endangering the public, etc. because we have nothing that suggests that anyone else was even remotely in danger.
You're making an assumption. You have no idea, and I don't either. Unless you work on the force?
The outcome was a vehicle fleeing from police (no less with a driver with glass in his face). To me, and everyone, that is a danger to the public. We're fortune no on was hurt, but the outcome was still not safe.
Don't worry about the edits, I said I'm not looking to debate anymore unless someone can point to actual harm in waiting and ensuring he isn't able to flee and it doesn't seem like you've come up with a reason. Which there is none. So we're good. I appreciate the responses, but like I said, no one will ever convince me that police shouldn't have public safety as their top priority.
What guaranteed de-escalation options are even available in a situation like that?
It's been mentioned calling for backup, or having another cruiser pull in front blocking in the car, but that's actually not de-escalation, that is increasing the force of power and likely to also cause a reaction.
Talking politely? Sounds like that was done prior, at what point do you have to give up on that option? One has to admit that there are people who will never obey or cooperate with the police, this is why police need to be trained in the use of force. If you can't use force, period, what is a cop to do sometimes?
I've analyzed this vid, and what likely may have happened leading up to it (according to the press release) and I don't know what actions could have been taken that would not have been perceived as escalating.
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The outcome was a vehicle fleeing from police (no less with a driver with glass in his face). To me, and everyone, that is a danger to the public. We're fortune no on was hurt, but the outcome was still not safe.
Don't worry about the edits, I said I'm not looking to debate anymore unless someone can point to actual harm in waiting and ensuring he isn't able to flee and it doesn't seem like you've come up with a reason. Which there is none. So we're good. I appreciate the responses, but like I said, no one will ever convince me that police shouldn't have public safety as their top priority.
That's fair, I'm not disagreeing with public safety being #1, and am certainly not constructing arguments to refute that.
I just think people are human, and as much as we try and have a step-by-step process to deal with everything, I don't think things go according to plan everytime. From what I saw, I thought the intention was there to preserve public safety, but perhaps there were things that could have been done differently. Can't say I'm a huge fan of the F-bombs, but I really think there is more that we have not seen.
By contrast, more than a dozen other democracies generally do not arm their police with guns and may instead rely on firearm-equipped teams that can respond to high-risk situations.
What guaranteed de-escalation options are even available in a situation like that?
Nothing is guaranteed, but patience and calling for backup is considered one of the most easiest and most common de-escalation technique. It is mandatory in a lot of police departments for situations like this.
Quote:
2 This section compares eight various police departments'
approaches to de-escalation training, including departments with robust
policies that have been notably successful in reducing excessive use-offorce complaints and fatalities. Common tactics used include reality-based
training, verbal skills training, and calling for back-up
Pretty much this just goes over a bunch of examples, including those close to this one, where the officer was chastised for not waiting for backup:
Spoiler!
Quote:
The report concluded that Tensing
"violated standard police practice" and should have de-escalated the
situation by calling for back-up
Quote:
The officer should have created distance and called for
backup instead of allowing the situation to turn tragic
Quote:
Even if Encinia
perceived a threat, he had alternatives available to him other than attempting
to remove Bland from her car-the simplest option was to wait for backup
to arrive
Officers need to "practice patience," he said, adding that it appears White tried to resolve the situation too quickly, especially given that Touchtone was unarmed. "Things don't have to be resolved within the first 30 seconds .... Let him sing all day. Let him stand outside his car and sing until backup comes."
...
But in the rest of the cases, where people were holding knives, toy weapons, or no weapons at all, police might have taken additional steps, like using communication skills or waiting for backup, to try to defuse the situations.
In his Sept. 30 email to command staff, Koval noted that despite the police department’s training emphasis on waiting for backup, “It has become painfully evident that this is not happening as much as I would like to see.”
“I am concerned,” Koval added in the email, “that our ‘business efficiency’ is trumping and thereby potentially compromising officer/public safety.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackArcher101
It's been mentioned calling for backup, or having another cruiser pull in front blocking in the car, but that's actually not de-escalation, that is increasing the force of power and likely to also cause a reaction.
Well his is the exact opposite taught in de-escalation training around the world. So maybe you know better, but you should be able to provide some evidence to the contrary then.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 11-22-2020 at 04:24 PM.
There wasn't another officer there, and there wasn't a police car in front of it because it wouldn't have been able to drive through. We can see this in the video. Making up a narrative that exonerates the officer which we know isn't true doesn't do anything
We have the video, we saw the officer go into a tantrum that caused the driver to flee. We can judge him on that, and we should. He failed his duty to public safety, and that's the worst thing an officer can do outside of being actively corrupt.
And again and again I ask where is the harm in waiting? Instead there's just a bunch of jokes about filibustering but cool, let them filibust, add resisting arrest and another two years to their sentence, while you take all the time required to prevent harm to public safety which in this case is ensuring he can't flee.
If you read the police statement it is pretty clear there was more than one officer there.
I mean another cruiser. If there was another cruiser, and the officer didn't block in the vehicle, that's another incompetent officer to criticize lol.
I mean another cruiser. If there was another cruiser, and the officer didn't block in the vehicle, that's another incompetent officer to criticize lol.
Without seeing anything other than the view out of the drivers side window, it's pretty tough to pass any sort of judgment on anything.
The car was able to drive off, we can safely say it wasn't blocked in.
Unless the entire thing was CGI, I guess.
You’re making “facts” where you don’t have information. Maybe the other cruiser was behind? Police typically don’t block in every vehicle at a routine traffic stop, there could have been another cruiser behind the cruiser. In fact, I’ve seen this a number of times.
For all we know, apparently you know different, there could have been lots of de-escalation techniques used over a number of hours prior to the video.
You’re making “facts” where you don’t have information. Maybe the other cruiser was behind? Police typically don’t block in every vehicle at a routine traffic stop, there could have been another cruiser behind the cruiser. In fact, I’ve seen this a number of times.
Most traffic stops don't have vehicles refusing to turn off and guns drawn. This wasn't a typical traffic stop anymore. Cops should be blocking him in to prevent him from fleeing once it became a dangerous flight risk. Again public safety trumps everything else.
But that just leads me to believe that there wasn't another cruiser, because they surely can't be that incompetent.
Most traffic stops don't have vehicles refusing to turn off and guns drawn. This wasn't a typical traffic stop anymore. Cops should be blocking him in to prevent him from fleeing once it became a dangerous flight risk. Again public safety trumps everything else.
But that just leads me to believe that there wasn't another cruiser, because they surely can't be that incompetent.
You’re right, it should be mandatory that everyone carries a magic lamp to summon a genie to make another service vehicle appear in front of potential perps seconds after things start to escalate when they refuse to turn off their vehicles or step out of them.
I mean another cruiser. If there was another cruiser, and the officer didn't block in the vehicle, that's another incompetent officer to criticize lol.
Tell me what you know of police tactics in reference to blocks or other vehicle tactics. Are you aware of CPS policies regarding those tactics? Is blocking considered an escalation or de-escalation.
Why do you even post in these threads. We know your stance. You have made that clear. Nothing the police can do will satisfy you.
I think what's odd is that you literally have no idea what happened previous to the recording. You have zero context. And you aren't willing to accept a different version of events because of your clear bias.
It's ok man. We get it. You hate police. You've had bad experiences and likely spent time on the wrong side of the law.
I'm still waiting for you to bring up Kaminsky. Hasn't happened it a few posts so it's coming soon.
