Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Nyah

My too. I'm really ashamed to admit that I was prejudice against and stereotyped First Nations people a lot when I was younger and even up until recently to some degree. That changed when I had a friend focus her dissertation on the historical and present day treatment of First Nations people in Canada and it really opened my eyes to the injustices they faced and still face today. I never once learned about any of the things they went through when I was going to school and was completely ignorant to the trauma that is ingrained in the community. It's embarrassing for me and all I can do now is continue to educate myself and listen to their stories.

I hope they get justice.

I feel the same. Up until my mid-20s my views of the indigenous people were very ignorant (they probably could still use some tweaking). I take responsibility for that, but a major part of the problem was the education curriculum and the attitudes of older generations.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yeah I don't remember learning any of this in grade school growing up 20-30 years ago. There was aboriginal history, but nothing about residential schools or the impact of the church/federal government on their rights.

Maybe that was by design. I think learning about this later in life - and waiting until basically adulthood to have a greater respect and understanding - is a huge mistake and I wish I could go back and change that. I hope kids are taught about this earlier in life, in the same way of the atrocities of war, genocide and other dark historical moments of humankind.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Slava

Whoa, I'm not sure about that line of thinking. Like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. I have a hard time seeing how I'd "bear some responsibility" for any atrocities committed there?

Things that were done to the first nations were abhorrent. I actually think there are things still happening today that are absolutely unconscionable and unacceptable. I completely agree with that line of thinking and feel that the governments (provincial and federal) have a duty to make inroads toward resolving those issues. I think that many of them are basic, human rights issues and it's a disgrace that in a country as rich as ours has allowed this to continue.

I am responsible not for the suffering that both my country of birth, the UK, and my adopted country, Canada, caused but I am living in the lap of luxury because of that suffering, my house, my income, everything I have is basically stolen and so I have responsibility for admitting this and trying to make amends where I can.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Slava

Whoa, I'm not sure about that line of thinking. Like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. I have a hard time seeing how I'd "bear some responsibility" for any atrocities committed there?

Things that were done to the first nations were abhorrent. I actually think there are things still happening today that are absolutely unconscionable and unacceptable. I completely agree with that line of thinking and feel that the governments (provincial and federal) have a duty to make inroads toward resolving those issues. I think that many of them are basic, human rights issues and it's a disgrace that in a country as rich as ours has allowed this to continue.

I respectfully disagree. I acknowledge that you are not defending what has happened. Most of us were intentionally not taught about what really happened. It was wrapped up under Nation building and well intentioned decisions that ultimately caused attempted genocide to occur.

We don't bear guilt for these incidents because we weren't apart of this, but we do help continue the legacy of racism. We vote for politicians continue to fail the Indigenous ppl of Canada. We (royal we) tell them to get over it that we won and then we vote for politicians with hard on crime platforms vs actually helping the ppl who are suffering the direct consequences of residential school.

This issue impacts all of us and we have to act. A good friend of mine was killed in a hit and run while she was crossing at a crosswalk. The driver was Indigenous with no license and he was intoxicated. He didn't get jail time. He was a residential school survivor. Clearly traumatized by it. I struggled with anger, but everyone was failed by this situation by the actions of the Church and our government. We may not have been there, but we are paying for it.

It's terrible. Those who made it out with healthy on the other side still struggle with personal relationships and the fact that they were cut off from their culture.

The TRC is a great start and there has been some change as we are now learning what happened, but we are responsible for fixing what our ancestors did.

I grew up in a BC town. I didn't realize how racist it was until I left. Its all so horrible.

Anyway, we are responsible for righting the wrongs of the past. It impacts us all.

EDIT: Worth noting that most of BC was never treatied out

[DoubleF]

Yeah, I agree with Transplant. It seems the bodies were from quite a long duration of time (79 years). Not that it absolves anyone, but I agree with him that I hope that there were other factors such as the flu for some of those bodies. Not that it changes anything or perhaps means much, but perhaps here's hoping that some of those 215 bodies were not due to abuse and that perhaps they passed without as much sorrow. Not that it takes away from any of the suffering, but just a hope that there was a bit more peace surrounding the circumstances of their passing.


I get where some of you are coming from too about how we understand these groups. I find it's not easy to learn and understand about first nations/indigenous/Metis. Somehow we don't really know. and there are many who basically know nothing or were taught relatively meaningless things about these groups that help nothing in terms of understanding what path they as a group have walked together to get to this point. I've tried learning a bit here and there but I would easily feel my understanding of their culture is woefully poor (in comparison to how I would understand another culture). I also somehow feel it's not easy to learn about this and each band is relatively unique to other bands.

I do want to learn and improve my understanding though, so if there's resources out there that are more helpful than others, I'd be grateful to hear about them. (ie: vet the quality of certain online resources) It would be nice to also know how to start for more relevant stuff (ie: local bands, regional bands then overall in Canada). It might be easier to approach it that way rather than immediate data overload.

Honestly speaking, it usually seems like the best resources out there are often someone who interacts with those cultures directly. I will usually chat up someone and try and learn more, but it's not easy. The internet isn't always the best resource (ie: each band isn't always the same).

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Slava

Whoa, I'm not sure about that line of thinking. Like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. I have a hard time seeing how I'd "bear some responsibility" for any atrocities committed there?

Things that were done to the first nations were abhorrent. I actually think there are things still happening today that are absolutely unconscionable and unacceptable. I completely agree with that line of thinking and feel that the governments (provincial and federal) have a duty to make inroads toward resolving those issues. I think that many of them are basic, human rights issues and it's a disgrace that in a country as rich as ours has allowed this to continue.

Can you not make the exact same excuse as a Catholic? 'Whoa, like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. The church has become more progressive, blah blah blah'. Not saying that this line of thinking is necessarily wrong but the fact Sliver thanked it comes across as hypnotical.

Either we are responsible for the mistakes of our ancestors or we aren't. I think the case can be made for either one to be correct.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Honestly speaking, it usually seems like the best resources out there are often someone who interacts with those cultures directly. I will usually chat up someone and try and learn more, but it's not easy. The internet isn't always the best resource (ie: each band isn't always the same).

Check out Alberta Parks and Recreation (arpaonline.ca). They have been doing a lot of great work. Check out their Walking with Indigenous Communities content. Lots of videos, links, etc.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Can you not make the exact same excuse as a Catholic? 'Whoa, like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. The church has become more progressive, blah blah blah'. Not saying that this line of thinking is necessarily wrong but the fact Sliver thanked it comes across as hypnotical.

Either we are responsible for the mistakes of our ancestors or we aren't. I think the case can be made for either one to be correct.

Well I guess the difference here is in personal responsibility versus federal or a more communal responsibility? I understand how the federal/provincial governments have a responsibility here (and I acknowledged that in the post), but I don't feel personally responsible, if that makes sense?

And, no I have no intent of defending the Catholic church. I'm not Catholic, and also have zero desire to get into a religious discussion surrounding this topic or basically any other.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Vena

I respectfully disagree. I acknowledge that you are not defending what has happened. Most of us were intentionally not taught about what really happened. It was wrapped up under Nation building and well intentioned decisions that ultimately caused attempted genocide to occur.

We don't bear guilt for these incidents because we weren't apart of this, but we do help continue the legacy of racism. We vote for politicians continue to fail the Indigenous ppl of Canada. We (royal we) tell them to get over it that we won and then we vote for politicians with hard on crime platforms vs actually helping the ppl who are suffering the direct consequences of residential school.

This issue impacts all of us and we have to act. A good friend of mine was killed in a hit and run while she was crossing at a crosswalk. The driver was Indigenous with no license and he was intoxicated. He didn't get jail time. He was a residential school survivor. Clearly traumatized by it. I struggled with anger, but everyone was failed by this situation by the actions of the Church and our government. We may not have been there, but we are paying for it.

It's terrible. Those who made it out with healthy on the other side still struggle with personal relationships and the fact that they were cut off from their culture.

The TRC is a great start and there has been some change as we are now learning what happened, but we are responsible for fixing what our ancestors did.

I grew up in a BC town. I didn't realize how racist it was until I left. Its all so horrible.

Anyway, we are responsible for righting the wrongs of the past. It impacts us all.

EDIT: Worth noting that most of BC was never treatied out

I don't even disagree with what you're saying here, as I noted, I think that the federal/provincial governments have a duty to try to rectify these wrongs (or at least apologize and push toward some sort of reconciliation).

I don't think that the first nations people should just "forget about it and move along" or anything of the sort. But I do think that there is a sort of grey area between that view point and "you should give everything back and fell super guilty because everything was stolen". Maybe I feel that way to placate myself, (although I haven't personally stolen anything and the long line of Slavas ancestors weren't likely involved in anything like this given what I know of them). It's an extremely complicated issue though, and these discussions make me uncomfortable because I don't want anything taken out of context.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Can you not make the exact same excuse as a Catholic? 'Whoa, like frankly this particular case is about a school that started and finished it's course before I was even alive. The church has become more progressive, blah blah blah'. Not saying that this line of thinking is necessarily wrong but the fact Sliver thanked it comes across as hypnotical.

Either we are responsible for the mistakes of our ancestors or we aren't. I think the case can be made for either one to be correct.

And as blankall pointed out, taking responsibility doesn't mean you should give up your home. It means you're consciously aware of your existence in the world in relation to everyone else's, how you've benefitted, and how you haven't.

Only good can come from everyone feeling responsible in even the smallest way. Nothing good comes from not. It doesn't mean you have to feel personally guilty or bad about yourself, it means you're fully aware.

There are people out there that resist, complain, or mock when we recognize the traditional territory we're on, literally the smallest thing we could possibly do as individuals, just recognizing the existence of something.

There are people who privately say to themselves "sure, I recognize this, I think it's terrible, I support these people, others should do more to make it right" but never do anything at all themselves, from what they say and do, when they speak up, to even who they vote for.

People are in the Canadian politics thread saying "I dunno, going to the moon seems nice!" when people are without clean drinking water. That shows that these thoughts of support are in isolation. They end when the mouth opens. They still want nice to haves while the problem persists. Clean drinking water for indigenous people doesn't have to be the highest priority item on your list of all things, but you would think that if you cared in the slightest it would be higher than something like going to the moon.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And as blankall pointed out, taking responsibility doesn't mean you should give up your home. It means you're consciously aware of your existence in the world in relation to everyone else's, how you've benefitted, and how you haven't.

Only good can come from everyone feeling responsible in even the smallest way. Nothing good comes from not. It doesn't mean you have to feel personally guilty or bad about yourself, it means you're fully aware.

There are people out there that resist, complain, or mock when we recognize the traditional territory we're on, literally the smallest thing we could possibly do as individuals, just recognizing the existence of something.

There are people who privately say to themselves "sure, I recognize this, I think it's terrible, I support these people, others should do more to make it right" but never do anything at all themselves, from what they say and do, when they speak up, to even who they vote for.

People are in the Canadian politics thread saying "I dunno, going to the moon seems nice!" when people are without clean drinking water. That shows that these thoughts of support are in isolation. They end when the mouth opens. They still want nice to haves while the problem persists. Clean drinking water for indigenous people doesn't have to be the highest priority item on your list of all things, but you would think that if you cared in the slightest it would be higher than something like going to the moon.

Agreed, and as touched upon earlier in the thread a major part of that is education. I have an aboriginal status card and even I must admit to being very ignorant on the topic as a whole. I know my grandma was almost put into one of these institutions but had no idea what they were and how horrific they were.

If more people were educated on the topic say similar to the treatment of Jews in WWII its conceivable that there would be more of an effort and support system for aboriginal peoples. I am not saying that the two are at all comparable but I am learning more and more that they are more similar than I would truly like to believe.

As for the 'this is the government's fault', unfortunately that is not an answer. We are a functioning democracy and have been since these schools were implemented. So to say that everyone shares the blame isn't too far from the truth, at least for the voting population during that time.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And as blankall pointed out, taking responsibility doesn't mean you should give up your home. It means you're consciously aware of your existence in the world in relation to everyone else's, how you've benefitted, and how you haven't.

Only good can come from everyone feeling responsible in even the smallest way. Nothing good comes from not. It doesn't mean you have to feel personally guilty or bad about yourself, it means you're fully aware.

There are people out there that resist, complain, or mock when we recognize the traditional territory we're on, literally the smallest thing we could possibly do as individuals, just recognizing the existence of something.

There are people who privately say to themselves "sure, I recognize this, I think it's terrible, I support these people, others should do more to make it right" but never do anything at all themselves, from what they say and do, when they speak up, to even who they vote for.

People are in the Canadian politics thread saying "I dunno, going to the moon seems nice!" when people are without clean drinking water. That shows that these thoughts of support are in isolation. They end when the mouth opens. They still want nice to haves while the problem persists. Clean drinking water for indigenous people doesn't have to be the highest priority item on your list of all things, but you would think that if you cared in the slightest it would be higher than something like going to the moon.

Thank you.

To clarify my position, I do feel a personal level of guilt. As stated, the colonization of indigenous people is ongoing, not historical. So every time I further myself, it's at the expense of another. That being said, you can't undo or remove Canadian society without creating another huge set of injustices.
For example, stripping individual Canadians of their property, would be an injustice in itself.

Until we've reached a fair deal with indigenous groups, that they accept, colonization continues on a massive scale. I also don't consider myself fully aware of all the suffering. I just try to be receptive to learning about it.

[Firebot]

The reddit thread on world news has some first hand poignant account of the residential school (and the untold story of the british code talkers)

They always said when they buried them, it was from a outbreak. But i dont remember gettin sick, more probably it was because of how they didnt feed us nothin. You cant give a kid whatever sad excuse of cream of wheat they gave us and expect them to live.

I remeber when my cousin was there i wasnt old enough to go. i wouldnt know what happenes until way later probably the 70's. I finished school in november 1944 when i was 16 (was gonma at 15 but the war changed alot.) I was sent to a school far away from home, in northern alberta. Sept there atleast, i was able to speak cree in secret with other cree kids they took or that got shipped off by their mothers (alot of our parents thought they were sending us to private schools or white boarding schools, not a jailcell) my cousin were with mostly what i assume would be the local kutnei.

Before the second world war started we had to do long hours of work at the sheet metal building, we werent payed and they said they were teaching us skills to take with us when we graduated. I didnt learn no thing about metal working till i was damn near 40. I had been taught nothing more than to push a button in the end. I hadnt gained any education, i was starved and beaten, many of my friends were taken away to the basment of the church building and locked in little rooms. we wouldnt see them for days, they always came back never the same. Many died.

The things i saw there were horrible. When i was older we would be allowed to go home sometimes, we would be told by the girls of awful surgeries on their private parts, rapes, pregnation and aborting of kids. some how it was worse for them. We always tried to escape and the police, the mounties always came for us. We called them "many black boots" or "kaskitéwaskasinawa" because they always came after you in groups. Youd always hear their boots on the wood of your moms house when you ran away and thats when you knew they were here. it was always that same boot on wood noise ill never forget it.

Still when the war came, we were trained to be soldiers. i was only 15 when i began training, some of the others as young as 12. They even trained adult soldiers in drills with us. The dean made it so it was always harsh during training, he never let up. Us who were to graduate at the usual 15 had to stay for a year of training.

Then one day i remember, they said we were going to a meeting, those of us who spoke cree still. at first no one dared even moved or admit they still spoke cree. we thought it was a trick to see if we still disobeyed their rules, but the strangest thing that day happened. we were told to speak cree for the first time ever. The very people who said our words were of the devil and had to be taken away to make room for gods light said i had to use the devils language.

Appearently that would be the start of britains "code talkers." I went to the pacific war. I didnt see any action, i mostly spent most of my days in the radio set on a giant battle ship. It was the greatest days of my life. I didnt earn no great medals but i do know i helped save the country who had tried to kill us as kids. Never forget what we did for you all. Even when the world had left us behind.

I am almost 93. I dont know if i could ever tell this story to anyone else. To be honest i dont have anyone to tell in real life.

I did not think anyone would see our stories. This does give me some peace, even if it is almost 100 years too late.

i am glad atleast someone will read this. I would tell some people and theyd probably look at me crazy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c...eb2x&context=3

I spent ages 12 to 15 running away from RCMP in the 60's. I and other girls part of a group were forced to be give hysterectomys. None of us were given proper medical attention like pain killers or knocking us out.

I ran away of course, during one of the rare trips to the temple in the white town just over the border of our reserve. I ran and I ran until i couldn't run anymore.

I arrived at an old man's house. He was a little strange but in the end very nice and a blessing at the time. I told him what was going on at the schools. He said he had heard rumours from his brother who was a priest at my school for a while before they moved him for trying to bring the things happening to light.

He would hids me for six long months. I even celbrated my 12th birthday hiding in a basement. Then one day i remember a local boy had kicked his ball into the back yard and he had hopped the fence with his mother. The only window to the basement was facing the backyard so i had a clear view of them and the same thing for them.

The mom saw me, but i didnt know at first.

Later the rcmp came for me. Ill never forget that squeak of brakes of their cars

I ended up escaping to another house and then driven to another town more safer up north. But it was not a comfortable life to move basement to basement listening for the sound of mounties knocking (always that one loud knock pattern, don't know why it was so common)

I thank the many good samaratins who gave me a home when the state was trying to murder me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c...eb2x&context=3

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....e-code-talkers

This is our Canada that basically we want to put a wool over our eyes (and at the same time want to virtue shame other countries like China while our issues are poorly acknowledged on our home turf)

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The reddit thread on world news has some first hand poignant account of the residential school (and the untold story of the british code talkers)



https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c...eb2x&context=3



https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c...eb2x&context=3

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....e-code-talkers

This is our Canada that basically we want to put a wool over our eyes (and at the same time want to virtue shame other countries like China while our issues are poorly acknowledged on our home turf)

That read actually made me feel sick to my stomach. Disgusting.

[burn_this_city]

Is it too late to round up the people involved with this? We're still tracking down camp guards from WW2 into their 90s. I guarantee some of these people are still out there and they belong behind bars.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Is it too late to round up the people involved with this? We're still tracking down camp guards from WW2 into their 90s. I guarantee some of these people are still out there and they belong behind bars.

I think we can all comment on the Catholic Church's desire to facilitate justice.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Is it too late to round up the people involved with this? We're still tracking down camp guards from WW2 into their 90s. I guarantee some of these people are still out there and they belong behind bars.

Despite the unspeakable atrocities of the German government, I think they are the only post war government to fully and completely admit and accept their guilt.

Just today I read a headline they are going to start paying reparations for genocide committed in Namibia.

Canada first needs to admit and accept the atrocities they committed, then hunt down those responsible and punish them to the fullest extent if they are still alive.

That was a chilling first hand account to read.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Is it too late to round up the people involved with this? We're still tracking down camp guards from WW2 into their 90s. I guarantee some of these people are still out there and they belong behind bars.

There's been some prosecution and civil suits, especially for sexual abuse. The residential school system wasn't closed until 1996. So this if far from ancient history.

It's really difficult to prove individual cases of assault, especially as many of the victims are reluctant to go forward. There have been some convictions, but it's kind of slap in the face how lenient the sentences are, as the really bad stuff is so hard to prove in court:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._An...dential_School

[jayswin]

Our junior high phys-ed teacher used to stop us from getting out of control by shouting "you're running around like a bunch of natives". And it wasn't a one off, it was his thing...and nobody thought anything of it.

That's the problem is kids need to be educated by people that care about Indigenous. If we're taught by people that despise them it makes our journey to treating them as equals with respect nearly impossible.

I'm there now, but I'm mad at how long it took.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Be weary of pining all of this on the Catholic Chruch, they were operating under federal grants to the marching order of federal policy.

GTFO with this shinguard.