American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[dino7c]

So who is your ideal candidate?

[Senator Clay Davis]

I don't think most people care if the left criticizes Biden. It's just these are the same people who'd be melting down if the center criticized Bernie and would say "Get in line, we need to beat Trump". I guess just more of the hyper-partisan hypocrisy that dominates politics in the social media era.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well then honestly who cares if the left criticizes Biden? It's not like those suburban voters are frequent readers of The Intercept or something. Mainstream media outlets have proven pretty adept at not covering the left's complaints about Biden.

Hell, even if you look at their records in Congress, the left generally falls in line with the Democratic establishment when the time comes to vote.

For all the whinging about Bernie Bros costing Hillary the election, they turned out in better numbers for her than Hillary voters did for Obama in '08. They aren't the reason she lost.

No, they aren't the sole reason she lost, but it was part of a multifactorial denigration of a candidate that helped Trump win. In no way was she a worse candidate than Trump, but enough people/groups said it over a long enough time, and it became the truth for most people.



I think in general, I'm fine with healthy criticism, but you seem to be overly concerned with the language Biden uses rather than looking at his actual platform or his specific actions. I don't think it's very productive to be the word police at this point in the campaign.

Again, once in he's in office, overanalyze all the minutiae of his speeches until you're blue in the face, but right now it reeks of you feeling self-important to point out these things.

#### is really bad here, like really really really bad, and Biden is a hope of some normalcy in the coming years. I don't have time to get overly concerned with his labels or word usage. Actions are all that matter to me at the moment. Rhetoric is meaningless at this stage.

[dobbles]

lets all just be honest here.... there is nothing wrong with criticizing Biden. But this is kind of rube's shtick to pick at superfluous things and make them into big deals.

I think the thing people like rube need to remember when blaming centrists for not advancing the agenda of the left is that centrists are in the middle where things get done. The prime example is Obamacare. It ended up being a watered down compromise and republicans have still spent a decade tearing it apart as much as they can. So progressives and Bernie can have all the plans they want. But they aren't going anywhere. So quit taking your frustration out on people like Biden.

[PepsiFree]

I also don't think independents are basing their votes on which side has less bias. If they were, Hillary would have won, because the criticisms of her were so much pettier and inconsequential. The left and right literally criticised her for anything and everything, while Trump largely skated for things like sexual assault because it was only the left that gave a ####.

I'm all for honest critiques of policy, but petty critiques of word choices or painting someone as senile DOES influence the independents, and not in the positive way you think. They aren't sitting there thinking "wow, the left is really critical of Biden, they must be smart and non-partisan people for being so fair." They're thinking "wow, the left is really critical of Biden, obviously we need to be as concerned about Biden as we are about Trump." Independents generally lean one way or another (more Democrat) but the few that don't dislike both fairly equally. They're looking at who to dislike the least, or which independent candidate they can waste a vote on.

I'm critical of Trudeau, but it's because I don't like Trudeau. I would prefer the NDP/Singh, but I'm also not really worried about the risk of a McKay-run Conservative government, because that seems about the same as a Trudeau-run Liberal government to me. I'm not critical of Trudeau because I'm thinking "THIS will convince independents to vote for Trudeau!" That's insanely naive.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by rubecube

well then honestly who cares if the left criticizes biden? It's not like those suburban voters are frequent readers of the intercept or something. Mainstream media outlets have proven pretty adept at not covering the left's complaints about biden.

Hell, even if you look at their records in congress, the left generally falls in line with the democratic establishment when the time comes to vote.

for all the whinging about bernie bros costing hillary the election, they turned out in better numbers for her than hillary voters did for obama in '08. They aren't the reason she lost.

Do you have a source for that? There is pretty strong evidence Bernie supporters gave Trump the rust belt, and Trump had no chance without those states. This doesn't even count Bernie supporters who didn't vote. We can argue whether Bernie supporters genuinely agreed with parts of Trump voters and Trump was actually their second choice, but they played a huge role in that part of the country which is all that really mattered.

https://twitter.com/user/status/900164807961305088

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by ignite09

Still going to work with at least 35% of the country.

They all are single issue voters who will vote for the anti-abortion candidate every time. It really sucks that this will be an issue seemingly forever. I am pretty strongly pro-choice, but I wonder if there is a compromise position democrats could find that doesn't disqualify them to such a large chunk of the population in some parts of the country.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

They all are single issue voters who will vote for the anti-abortion candidate every time. It really sucks that this will be an issue seemingly forever. I am pretty strongly pro-choice, but I wonder if there is a compromise position democrats could find that doesn't disqualify them to such a large chunk of the population in some parts of the country.

Even with Democrats/progressives fighting tooth and nail for it, the GOP has been stripping away abortion access for decades. If we "compromise" there, plenty of states might lose access altogether. I would be infuriated if the party compromised on this.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by dino7c

So the GOP is doing their damnedest to get Kanye on the ballot in some swing states

How can he and anyone who votes for him be so ####ing stupid?

This is hilarious. Just think back 10 years and imagine reading this article:

Incumbent, and reality TV star Donald Trump voices support for rapper Kanye West being on presidential election ballot

Is this even real life anymore!?

[Lanny_McDonald]

The simulation must becoming to an end... ?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I also don't think independents are basing their votes on which side has less bias. If they were, Hillary would have won, because the criticisms of her were so much pettier and inconsequential. The left and right literally criticised her for anything and everything, while Trump largely skated for things like sexual assault because it was only the left that gave a ####.

I'm all for honest critiques of policy, but petty critiques of word choices or painting someone as senile DOES influence the independents, and not in the positive way you think. They aren't sitting there thinking "wow, the left is really critical of Biden, they must be smart and non-partisan people for being so fair." They're thinking "wow, the left is really critical of Biden, obviously we need to be as concerned about Biden as we are about Trump." Independents generally lean one way or another (more Democrat) but the few that don't dislike both fairly equally. They're looking at who to dislike the least, or which independent candidate they can waste a vote on.

I'm critical of Trudeau, but it's because I don't like Trudeau. I would prefer the NDP/Singh, but I'm also not really worried about the risk of a McKay-run Conservative government, because that seems about the same as a Trudeau-run Liberal government to me. I'm not critical of Trudeau because I'm thinking "THIS will convince independents to vote for Trudeau!" That's insanely naive.

While this is true, Canada just isn't divisive so there's no definition of an independent voter, heck they could be voting Rhino party. We don't have to register to vote so nobody knows who we are or how we vote. I mean here in Alberta we've had a conservative and an NDP government which are wild extremes and our lives didn't really change that much.

In the States the whole point of the election is to convince independents because they are the majority of the voters and they decide elections. And the non-independents think the world will end if the other side wins.

Conservatives will ban abortion and arm teachers.
Democrats will let everyone into the country and give everything away for free.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The Alberta NDP supported pipelines, so juuuust a bit hyperbolic to say they are the other extreme of the UCP.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

While this is true, Canada just isn't divisive so there's no definition of an independent voter, heck they could be voting Rhino party. We don't have to register to vote so nobody knows who we are or how we vote. I mean here in Alberta we've had a conservative and an NDP government which are wild extremes and our lives didn't really change that much.

In the States the whole point of the election is to convince independents because they are the majority of the voters and they decide elections. And the non-independents think the world will end if the other side wins.

Conservatives will ban abortion and arm teachers.
Democrats will let everyone into the country and give everything away for free.

Independents no longer decide elections in the US. There are two reasons, one they aren’t really independents and secondary turnout dwarfs any number of voters you could persuade to your side. Modern political campaigns are about turnout and enthusiasm amoung your base. Suppress turnout of your opponent and encourage it around your supporters. There is no value in changing minds in the US

[jammies]

I'm not sure if lukewarm leftist support gave Trump the victory in 2016, but I am 100% sure the opinions presented on CalgaryPuck had zero effect on the election. Neither Jimmy in Peoria or Gertrude in San Antonio will be sourcing their opinions here this election, either.

The argument that you need to pick a side in a fight in which you have no influence is not only baffling, but ridiculous. I don't have a vote, not being an American citizen, so I can be anti-whoever without that automatically making me pro-theotherguy. Partisanship and defining everything in binary terms are also bigger problems than any particular politician, will remain so regardless of who wins in November, and won't be helped by claims that we should resort to them just this one time.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by GGG

Independents no longer decide elections in the US. There are two reasons, one they aren’t really independents and secondary turnout dwarfs any number of voters you could persuade to your side. Modern political campaigns are about turnout and enthusiasm amoung your base. Suppress turnout of your opponent and encourage it around your supporters. There is no value in changing minds in the US

Its why Trump supporters pretend to be Democrats and cry "Biden sucks, we need to be critical of him, is he really the best?!" The play is to suppress Democrat voters, make them dislike the nominee and stay home ala 2016.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Its why Trump supporters pretend to be Democrats and cry "Biden sucks, we need to be critical of him, is he really the best?!" The play is to suppress Democrat voters, make them dislike the nominee and stay home ala 2016.

Exactly...Trump has his voters in the bag. Their strategy is to convince people not to vote for Biden or at all as opposed to convincing them to vote for trump

Trump loves the Rube's of the world right now, they are doing his job. Evidence of this is Trump trying to get Kanye on the ballot in swing states.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'm not sure if lukewarm leftist support gave Trump the victory in 2016, but I am 100% sure the opinions presented on CalgaryPuck had zero effect on the election. Neither Jimmy in Peoria or Gertrude in San Antonio will be sourcing their opinions here this election, either.

The argument that you need to pick a side in a fight in which you have no influence is not only baffling, but ridiculous. I don't have a vote, not being an American citizen, so I can be anti-whoever without that automatically making me pro-theotherguy. Partisanship and defining everything in binary terms are also bigger problems than any particular politician, will remain so regardless of who wins in November, and won't be helped by claims that we should resort to them just this one time.

Except in this day and age people without a vote can and will effect the election. Massive social media campaigns are being run from people all over the world on both sides

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

The left has been irrelevant because they bought the dogma liberals sold them regarding incremental changes through pacifism and "civil" discourse.

Except Corbyn was a genuine left wing candidate in the UK, a profoundly more left wing country than the US and he went down to the worst defeat in a century, the NDP can't win in Canada and rarely wins in the Provinces.

There are plenty of left wing choices and every time they run they get eviserated.

Unless you are honestly postulating that the US is more likely to embrace the left than the UK or Canada in which case words fail me.

[bob-loblaw]

I haven't seen anything about this, but has there been a swing towards support for universal health care amongst Americans because of Covid-19? I would think there's going to be a financial reckoning between hospitals, insurance companies and Americans because of both the short-term and long-term consequences of it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Except Corbyn was a genuine left wing candidate in the UK, a profoundly more left wing country than the US and he went down to the worst defeat in a century, the NDP can't win in Canada and rarely wins in the Provinces.

There are plenty of left wing choices and every time they run they get eviserated.

Unless you are honestly postulating that the US is more likely to embrace the left than the UK or Canada in which case words fail me.

I mean that largely ignores Corbyn's first election and has literally nothing to do with what I'm talking about, but carry on.