Craig Conroy and "The Dallas Model"

[Steve Bozek]

To me, it seems the Conroy approach seems reasonable, and on the whole I like what he’s done so far.
But it’s all going to come down to whether the scouting staff can perform well. I would say that so far Tod Button and crew have been “middle of the pack” in terms of hits and misses. I certainly hope they have improved since the year they chose Mason Macdonald and Hunter Smith over a number of future top level NHL players.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The Dallas model can be boiled down to a very simple statement: "Draft better than everyone else".

That's it.
And I don't say that negatively. In fact, if I were the Flames that's exactly the mission I would put forth to the scouting staff and front office. It acknowledges that the team operates under systematic disadvantages. So if it's going to compete, it must outperform in other areas - the key one being scouting and drafting.

Scouting can be inclusive of identifying under-valued players from other organizations, which they seem to be doing a good job of.

But boil it down to the essence: that's what it really is.

But I'm being told otherwise! That it actually boils down to a desire to be in the mushy middle! That's what Conroy and management wants!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

To me, it seems the Conroy approach seems reasonable, and on the whole I like what he’s done so far.
But it’s all going to come down to whether the scouting staff can perform well. I would say that so far Tod Button and crew have been “middle of the pack” in terms of hits and misses. I certainly hope they have improved since the year they chose Mason Macdonald and Hunter Smith over a number of future top level NHL players.

I still don't have a good feel for how Conroy runs the scouting department. I seem to recall with Treliving it was reported that he made the 1st round pick decision and then let the scouts decide the rest of the picks.

Conroy seems to be really dialed in and draft oriented. He said in a recent interview that the draft is his favourite part of being in management and you can tell he gets really excited talking about it. I mean, Conroy get excited for breakfast, but even by his standards, he seems extra excited. In fact, I think he is in Finland right now scouting players and during the regular season, he was out scouting a fair bit from what I understand. I also like that he increased the scouting staff in general and added a Russian scout.

Of course he will rely a lot on input from his scouts, but I wouldn't be surprised if when it comes to making the choices, he is a lot more inclined to rely more on his own perceptions. Which I guess could be a good thing or bad thing, depending on how good his eye is.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by saillias

It doesn't inspire confidence to me that Conroy said this. Not that I have a problem with Dallas. What they've done is impressive. But to use them as a model specifically. It's very much we want to have our cake and eat it too. We're somehow going to draft better than everyone else without going through any pain.

It's sort of an unclear if not delusional vision. I almost wonder if it's a narrative for ownership more than anything. We know you only get franchise players from finishing last, but we have some good players so we can't, so we just have to draft better than everyone else somehow. Even though there are highly competent teams without the handicaps of our market, and many with larger budgets to spend on scouting than us.

But are you honestly suggesting that Conroy and his management group have picked Dallas and either a) failed to understand that Dallas did it with a very fortunate draft (won a lottery and hit on all their picks b) or are planning on duplicating that luck themselves?

It's a chatty guy that is pointing out a team that drafted well and surrounded an older core with a younger one.

That's it.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But are you honestly suggesting that Conroy and his management group have picked Dallas and either a) failed to understand that Dallas did it with a very fortunate draft (won a lottery and hit on all their picks b) or are planning on duplicating that luck themselves?

It's a chatty guy that is pointing out a team that drafted well and surrounded an older core with a younger one.

That's it.

I actually think it's a dash more than that. I think it's a chatty guy that is selling a retool while doing a rebuild. We'll know if he trades someone with term this off season (other than markstrom). So ya, Dallas! There's a team. Talk about that for a while.

Certainly wouldn't take anything he says literally after his first lesson as gm was to not talk about needing to sign or trade players.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Our vets are Huberdeau 30, Kadri 34 and Backlund 35.

Benn was 28 and Seguin was 25 when Dallas had the big draft. Fairly significant age difference between the old vets.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Our vets are Huberdeau 30, Kadri 34 and Backlund 35.

Benn was 28 and Seguin was 25 when Dallas had the big draft. Fairly significant age difference between the old vets.

Once again you're taking things too literally.

He has a player with 7 years left on his contract and can't be moved. Drafting well is s given. Picking a team that didn't go down to the studs is the other part of the puzzle.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But are you honestly suggesting that Conroy and his management group have picked Dallas and either a) failed to understand that Dallas did it with a very fortunate draft (won a lottery and hit on all their picks b) or are planning on duplicating that luck themselves?

It's a chatty guy that is pointing out a team that drafted well and surrounded an older core with a younger one.

That's it.

The point is its a tough needle to thread, because of the luck involved. They didn't simply just surround an aging core with a younger one -- the younger one had to be of a high caliber. So, yes, it sounds like the Flames want to replicate that luck. Otherwise it won't work, will it?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Once again you're taking things too literally.

He has a player with 7 years left on his contract and can't be moved. Drafting well is s given. Picking a team that didn't go down to the studs is the other part of the puzzle.

He might just be selling the rebuild as a retool. I’ve liked what he’s done so far.

Now we need to trust the scouts and make the right picks and not draft for attributes like we have done in the past and miss on good players.

The scouts have shown they can find good players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

The point is its a tough needle to thread, because of the luck involved. They didn't simply just surround an aging core with a younger one -- the younger one had to be of a high caliber. So, yes, it sounds like the Flames want to replicate that luck. Otherwise it won't work, will it?

So a group of 4 experienced hockey executives are planning on being lucky?

You really think that's the view that came out of the warrroom?

Or do you think a chatty GM just listed Dallas as a model he'd like to emulate because they drafted a young core to join an existing one?

Which one holds water?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

He might just be selling the rebuild as a retool. I’ve liked what he’s done so far.

Now we need to trust the scouts and make the right picks and not draft for attributes like we have done in the past and miss on good players.

The scouts have shown they can find good players.

How far back are you going with that paranoia though?

They drafted three undersized first round forwards in a row in Pelletier, Zary and Coronato.

I don't see a size first bias in their draft selections in the last 5 years.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How far back are you going with that paranoia though?

They drafted three undersized first round forwards in a row in Pelletier, Zary and Coronato.

I don't see a size first bias in their draft selections in the last 5 years.

Last year they drafted big. I am a little worried that Conroy will shift the drafting philosophy towards size over skill but it has only been one draft so will see how the next one goes.

“Absolutely size matters,” said Conroy while on his way to the Nashville airport.

“As a player I always found it harder to play against big guys, so when you can add size to your lineup it’s a bonus.

If the GM wants big then I think it’s harder to maintain that size is just a bonus and they will skew their picks.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How far back are you going with that paranoia though?

They drafted three undersized first round forwards in a row in Pelletier, Zary and Coronato.

I don't see a size first bias in their draft selections in the last 5 years.

Conroy would have been on the management side when we wasted picks on Smith and Kanzig because they are big.

Even last season they took an injured player with size.

In 2021 we take a bigger player in Strongrem when Stankoven a smaller injured player but much more skilled is on the board. We drafted his teammate a year earlier.

But it’s easy to pick and choose the best players of each draft and say we should have taken him, every team passes on someone.

I’m just saying stick to best player available, regardless of size or a last name.

I think that’s the Dallas model we should follow. Become great at drafting.

[Major Major]

Size does matter...

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Last year they drafted big. I am a little worried that Conroy will shift the drafting philosophy towards size over skill but it has only been one draft so will see how the next one goes.

“Absolutely size matters,” said Conroy while on his way to the Nashville airport.

“As a player I always found it harder to play against big guys, so when you can add size to your lineup it’s a bonus.

If the GM wants big then I think it’s harder to maintain that size is just a bonus and they will skew their picks.

The 2023 class looked really good, it’s a bit concerning the steps Morin and Honzek have taken since being drafted going backwards. But we still have time.

That’s why it’s important they nail the picks this time around and stick to the list and not get blinded by any bias of size. Lindstrom is concerning and I would hope they leave him off our list due to injury concerns. That’s the type of player that could blind a team because he’s big.

[Bingo]

Honzek wasn't a drafting for size pick.

He was a top 15 pick in a deep draft with skill AND size.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honzek wasn't a drafting for size pick.

He was a top 15 pick in a deep draft with skill AND size.

It kind of was when the gm says they drafted him for size.

I’m not saying he’s not skilled and fast, but he has injury concerns.

Would they have still taken him had a 5’9 super fast and skilled guy been available at that spot with no injury concerns ?

That’s why I used that Strongem and Stankoven comparison.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I believe that people are taking Conroy's words too literally here. I firmly believe that Dallas just simply came up as an example of how a team can turn things around without a scorched-earth rebuild.



It isn't some specific step-by-step case. It is just an example of a team with some recent success, or at least perceived recent success, who haven't burnt it down to the ground.

[Paulie Walnuts]

If the Flames don’t make that Dougie Hamilton trade in the 2015 and we walk out with Barzal and still take Andersson and Kylington I wonder how different things look today.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

It kind of was when the gm says they drafted him for size.

I’m not saying he’s not skilled and fast, but he has injury concerns.

Would they have still taken him had a 5’9 super fast and skilled guy been available at that spot with no injury concerns ?

That’s why I used that Strongem and Stankoven comparison.

But I think there is a subtle difference between drafting specifically for size and size just factoring in to the decision. I doubt Conroy told his scouts to give him a list of big players and then worked off of that list alone. Liking a plyer partly because of their size isn't the same as focusing on size.