Russia invades Ukraine

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

So the latest from the right is that the Ukraine war itself is a western hoax.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64789737

I have to say the level of detail put into this hoax is impressive. I can’t wait to go back to Kefalonia to confront the waitress I’ve known for years who is perpetuating this hoax. I feel truly duped that I believed for a second that her elderly mother was in Skala because she had to flee Mariupol.

JFC. I literally have a Ukrainian refugee working for me. She's about 20 steps away from where I'm typing this. Her son is still there because he wasn't allowed to leave with her and her daughter. What - on god's green earth - is up with the insane right wing?

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Sliver

JFC. I literally have a Ukrainian refugee working for me. She's about 20 steps away from where I'm typing this. Her son is still there because he wasn't allowed to leave with her and her daughter. What - on god's green earth - is up with the insane right wing?

It’s immoral and they don’t ####ing care how much they hurt people, including those that have lost everything and everyone. I just don’t understand how people can fall for this.

[karl262]

Big congratulations to Mr Steven Seagal on his Order of Friendship award announced in a Russian government decree today!

A befitting honor for an amazing man.

A few years ago he did a fantastic reddit AMA, I wish he would do them more often, probably too busy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...m_source=share

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

China's not in a position to impose a detailed settlement on anyone. All it can do is try and get both sides to the table so that they can figure out the details. Right now that process of figuring out the details is only taking place with soldiers, so if they're willing to try to engage both sides on figuring out the details with non-violent means I don't see a problem with that. As Zelensky said, it's all in what steps follow from the initial proposal. If it fails, it fails, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. Ukraine and Russia will still be figuring it out with soldiers if it doesn't work.

Russia already rejected the Chinese peace proposal and they have absolutely zero interest in constructive dialogs. Russia's position has been that they will only stop shooting if Ukraine unconditionally cedes territory to Russia. There is zero flexibility and Putin has never shown any ability to compromise in his entire time in power. He'll just continue trying to dictate terms i.e. "surrender and give us what we want". Talk is meaningless without any ability to compromise or any sort of trust because of all the broken treaties.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Friday thanked Chinese efforts but said that any settlement of the conflict needed to recognize Russia's control over four Ukrainian regions.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/...ukraine-a80345

Ukraine on the other hand cannot rebuild or even attempt to stand it's economy back up with Russia still in their territory. Their only condition for peace is for Russia to "get out of our country and leave us alone".

https://twitter.com/user/status/1630469563308490755

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

So the latest from the right is that the Ukraine war itself is a western hoax.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64789737



I have to say the level of detail put into this hoax is impressive. I can’t wait to go back to Kefalonia to confront the waitress I’ve known for years who is perpetuating this hoax. I feel truly duped that I believed for a second that her elderly mother was in Skala because she had to flee Mariupol.

What a waste of air time / media to give a few people (use that word loosely) the spotlight they crave. It’s not worth uttering their names, nevermind giving them more spotlight.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Sliver

JFC. I literally have a Ukrainian refugee working for me. She's about 20 steps away from where I'm typing this. Her son is still there because he wasn't allowed to leave with her and her daughter. What - on god's green earth - is up with the insane right wing?

They are just a bunch of yohos.

Is there still a decent Republican still alive? I think the last one died off when McCain left.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

I think the last one died off when McCain left.

Tru Dat

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Russia already rejected the Chinese peace proposal and they have absolutely zero interest in constructive dialogs. Russia's position has been that they will only stop shooting if Ukraine unconditionally cedes territory to Russia. There is zero flexibility and Putin has never shown any ability to compromise in his entire time in power. He'll just continue trying to dictate terms i.e. "surrender and give us what we want". Talk is meaningless without any ability to compromise or any sort of trust because of all the broken treaties.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/...ukraine-a80345

Ukraine on the other hand cannot rebuild or even attempt to stand it's economy back up with Russia still in their territory. Their only condition for peace is for Russia to "get out of our country and leave us alone".

https://twitter.com/user/status/1630469563308490755

Well, they tried. And it's a positive if Ukrainian-Chinese relations are more strongly maintained by the effort.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said his country needed to work with China, arguing "it seems to me that there is respect for our territorial integrity, security issues" in the Chinese perspective.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...aine/hadibgj9nhttps://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...aine/hadibgj9n

Also, the fact that a leading country on good terms with Russia brought forward a plan largely reflecting what a lot of the Global South would like to see, and Russia rejected that plan, may cost Russia some more favour/sympathy among Global South nations.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

well, they tried

lol

[nik-]

The only reason China cares about the Global South is so they can put them in debt slavery.

[FlameOn]

It's not like anything the Chinese proposed wasn't proposed before by the Europeans/Germans before they gave up and went all in on Ukrainian arms support. The peace plan just looks like a "Hey, look at me too" exercise at best, duplicitous at worse with China's ongoing discussions to provide artillery shells/suicide drones to Russia.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

It's not like anything the Chinese proposed wasn't proposed before by the Europeans/Germans before they gave up and went all in on Ukrainian arms support. The peace plan just looks like a "Hey, look at me too" exercise at best, duplicitous at worse with China's ongoing discussions to provide artillery shells/suicide drones to Russia.

The wish to get rid of sanctions on Russia is also 100% just in their own self-interest. Not to mention their declaration to respect sovereign territory is disingenuous at best with their claims on Taiwan. Do they consider Crimea to be Russia sovereign territory? How about the other Russian annexed areas? Ukraine and other countries have to be careful accepting such a statement at face value since China has a pretty ambiguous view on what sovereign means.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The wish to gat rid of sanctions on Russia is also 100% just in their own self-interest. Not to mention their declaration to respect sovereign territory is disingenuous at best with their claims on Taiwan. Do they consider Crimea to be Russia sovereign territory? How about the other Russian annexed areas? Ukraine and other countries have to be careful accepting such a statement at face value since China has a pretty ambiguous view on what sovereign means.

Tibet would like a word...

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

China's not in a position to impose a detailed settlement on anyone. All it can do is try and get both sides to the table so that they can figure out the details. Right now that process of figuring out the details is only taking place with soldiers, so if they're willing to try to engage both sides on figuring out the details with non-violent means I don't see a problem with that. As Zelensky said, it's all in what steps follow from the initial proposal. If it fails, it fails, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. Ukraine and Russia will still be figuring it out with soldiers if it doesn't work.




The 'work' of contributing constructively rather than trolling?

Perhaps you should read something about the growing division between the West and the rest of the world. Here's something:

United West, divided from the rest: Global public opinion one year into Russia’s war on Ukraine

While Biden is pushing "democracy vs. autocracy" and opinions in Western countries are moving towards a view of a world divided between the Western bloc and a Chinese-led bloc, the rest of the world is looking towards a multi-polar future. This is why there is a new non-aligned movement rising. Most of the world just sees the Western outlook of 'our bloc vs. the other' as a continuation of the historical failure of the Global North to recognize the legitimacy of the many varied sovereign interests and capacities of countries in the Global South and to take them seriously.

Yes - countries like China, India and Turkey who are more aligned with Russia are more supportive of Russia. (Poll also includes Russia.. which shockingly also supports Russia's side). And countries who want to become world powers - want to see the West lose power.

China and India aren't exactly pals. If China decided to invade India over their land disputes - I doubt they would turn down support from the West.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by nik-

The only reason China cares about the Global South is so they can put them in debt slavery.

China wants their own China.

[JohnnyB]

So, no interest in the fact that this is good for Ukraine, bad for Russia, and a generally positive development?

The indications from how things went with the Chinese proposal are that China's plan involved Russia leaving Ukrainian territory, and Zelensky also says that China respects Ukrainian territory and security interests. That's a good thing.

The lifting of sanctions isn't just something in China's interests. Much of the world is negatively affected by the sanctions. Just look at the list of countries outside of the EU and North America that have sanctioned Russia. It's a pretty short list. Including things in peace proposals that appeal to a broad base of global support is not a bad thing.

Lula is also working on a peace proposal based on bringing sides together to talk and find peace through dialogue, and will meet with Xi to work as part of it. Will this effort also be roundly condemned? Will Zelensky be condemned for meeting with China?

Overall, I see a lot more positives out of this than negatives (apart from Russia's response). I hope that there are more efforts along these lines from countries that aren't involved in the conflict. I support Lula trying to move something forward as well and trying to bring China in on it along with other partners. It is not a bad thing to have countries trying to find ways to end conflict from off of the battlefield.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Yes - countries like China, India and Turkey who are more aligned with Russia are more supportive of Russia. (Poll also includes Russia.. which shockingly also supports Russia's side). And countries who want to become world powers - want to see the West lose power.

China and India aren't exactly pals. If China decided to invade India over their land disputes - I doubt they would turn down support from the West.

China and India not being pals is a demonstration of how the world isn't just falling into a Western bloc and a Chinese bloc. Global South countries all have their own legitimate interests to pursue and those interests will sometimes align while at other times they will conflict.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

China wants their own China.

China engaging in trade and investment that helps more countries climb the economic ladder and improve quality of life for their people would be great.

Also, this isn't a China thread and I don't want to go off topic but seeing as this has cropped up multiple times now as part of posts dispelling the possibility of China being constructively involved in anything for peace, including the post you were replying to, the debt trap diplomacy myth is already pretty well debunked in actual development finance literature.

[nik-]

The point of sanctions isn't comfort. If China wants the global economic pain to end, they should lean on their ally to stop killing Ukranians and actually leave. Not with milquetoast, diplomatic, vague language, but by ending support. They just want this to be as easy for them as possible. But they don't get to have their cake and eat it too in this scenario.

You're nibbling at periphery issues. The core issue is that Russia invaded its neighbour and has killed probably half a million Ukrainians in a year. Sorry "Can't we all just get along" isn't enough. It's transparent.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

So, no interest in the fact that this is good for Ukraine, bad for Russia, and a generally positive development?

The indications from how things went with the Chinese proposal are that China's plan involved Russia leaving Ukrainian territory, and Zelensky also says that China respects Ukrainian territory and security interests. That's a good thing.

The lifting of sanctions isn't just something in China's interests. Much of the world is negatively affected by the sanctions. Just look at the list of countries outside of the EU and North America that have sanctioned Russia. It's a pretty short list. Including things in peace proposals that appeal to a broad base of global support is not a bad thing.

Lula is also working on a peace proposal based on bringing sides together to talk and find peace through dialogue, and will meet with Xi to work as part of it. Will this effort also be roundly condemned? Will Zelensky be condemned for meeting with China?

Overall, I see a lot more positives out of this than negatives (apart from Russia's response). I hope that there are more efforts along these lines from countries that aren't involved in the conflict. I support Lula trying to move something forward as well and trying to bring China in on it along with other partners. It is not a bad thing to have countries trying to find ways to end conflict from off of the battlefield.

It's pointless, because Russia won't leave Ukraine. There doesn't need to be a peace proposal or ceasefire or negotiations or anything else. There is one solution, and Russia holds all the power. Russia basically said "thanks but not thanks, we'll keep at it our way." Which is why the whole thing was pointless as a tool, and only sheds light on what China feels is important(hint:it's not Ukraine).

[Fuzz]

China has sought to position itself as a neutral party in the conflict while maintaining close ties with strategic ally Russia.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/...ukraine-a80345

That really says it all though, doesn't it? China wants to be neutral while reaping the gains of a wounded Russia. They continue trade and purchasing energy. They are enablers. They want it to end? Stop enabling. Will it hurt you? Yes, it will. That's the way the world works, figure it out, but stop pretending like you are neutral. You are not, you are an enabler. China's endless double-talk is exhausting, particularity when people buy into it so whole-heartedly.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Friday thanked Chinese efforts but said that any settlement of the conflict needed to recognize Russia's control over four Ukrainian regions.

Russia isn't interested in peace. Talks are pointless.