Godless Apostate

[jayswin]

The thing with religion, and in particular, Christianity, is that there are good and bad things about it. It provides a lot of help for a lot of people, and is something to believe in when people are lost. But I don't agree with Dion when he says that it is harmless and therefor should not be critisized, and people should have a live and let live approach to those who follow it.

Here's the kicker for me. That religion teaches people that homosexuality is wrong and it's followers support legistlation that treats gays and lesbians as second class citizens, which is a brutal example of christians affecting people outside of their religion in a serious way.

...and because of that alone, christianity promotes 1st and 2nd class citizens (because they don't believe homosexuality is actually a real thing you're born with) and therefore, imo, promotes hate. Until that changes, religion can go screw itself as far as I'm concerned.

[Devils'Advocate]

This thread is about religion. The info graphic covers only some religions. Most Christians would agree that the Old Testament no longer applies. And it isn't the whole story for Judaism nr Islam.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I love the Bible. The Bible can teach you amazing things, truths that speak to you in ways similar to art, music, or any other great work of literature.

Can you give a heathen some examples, as I've read them all and have not shared that experience.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I love the Bible. The Bible can teach you amazing things, truths that speak to you in ways similar to art, music, or any other great work of literature. When expecting to get empirical truths from it, however, you obviously run into trouble. Looking for a truth of the human predicament, or simply your own predicament? Read well, the Bible, the Koran, whatever, can give you fantastic insights. Looking for the exact date the planet Earth came into existence? Not so much.

Sure, and if everyone treated the bible the way you do, there'd be nothing wrong. The problem is, way too many try and use the bible for the exact reasons you stated it shouldn't be used for, and it's detrimental to society and makes people come off as uneducated, intolerant and spiteful of others who don't share their non sensical beliefs.

[Skootenbeeten]

It is really incredible how atheists have actually become more annoying than people who would come to your door and preach.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

It is really incredible how atheists have actually become more annoying than people who would come to your door and preach.

Is that a general comment or are you reffering to things said in this thread?

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Is that a general comment or are you reffering to things said in this thread?

In general and this thread.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

In general and this thread.

Oh okay, I totally agree in general, as I even made a similar comment on the first page. But in the spirit of this thread, I would argue that the whole point of it is to discuss religion, so it's not really fair to label them as annoying, when the door was opened for discussion.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Oh okay, I totally agree in general, as I even made a similar comment on the first page. But in the spirit of this thread, I would argue that the whole point of it is to discuss religion, so it's not really fair to label them as annoying, when the door was opened for discussion.

Like when people post Ricky Gervais and one of his million tweets about how he is an athiest. Like get over it already, we aren't your mum and you aren't 16 years old anymore, who cares if you don't believe in god?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by evman150

This is a brutal false equivalence.

Reminds me of some "scientist" in "the secret" video (you know - rhonda byrne BS) who says something along the lines of "do you know how electricity works? I sure don't, therefore nobody does - therefore it's the secret!"

Not sure how you see it that way. Yes, there is better evidence and logical reasoning behind scientific explanations of how the universe works, but it is still a little thin on data at times to verify some of these theories. There is extrapolation based on data, but that makes whatever is concluded rather tenuous, and things will most likely change in the future as we get more data. That's just how science works, we use the best information at the time. This is not in reference to evolution or any well established scientific theory/principle, but rather the newer more revolutionary scientific explanations.

Remember when scientists were saying that creating the Higgs Boson particle could possibly create a black hole? Well, that turned out to be wrong. That's the thing, science is often wrong, but they're ok with being wrong from time to time. I've yet to meet a religious person that is ok with having wrong ideas based on religion.

Whether you like it or not, physicists are still unravelling many of the secrets of the universe and definitely do NOT have all the answers yet. I would rather have the logical and limited explanations science has at times and be comfortable with the unknown, rather than have the somewhat silly notion that god is in heaven waiting for you in the afterlife.

And I really have no idea what that quote from "The Secret" has to do with my thoughts or argument.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Thor

Can you give a heathen some examples, as I've read them all and have not shared that experience.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with "give a heathen," since by what is likely your own definition, I'm a heathen as well. It has nothing to do with whether you're a religious individual or not. It has to do with textual interpretation and looking at what's written not as empirical truth any more than you would look at The Brothers Karazamov as empirical truth. You're not religious. I'm not religious. Get over the fact (for the sake of this discussion I'm putting down here, anyway) that others view the book as literal truth, we both know it's likely not, and there's a good chance the men that originally wrote them didn't view it that way either.

Instead, taken, read, and viewed as a collection of (non-empirical) myths like many other collections of myths, its stories can be interpreted a multitude of different ways, many of which can give you new, or old, insights into your own life, your own thoughts, or the world around you. I don't really need to give specific examples of this do I? How many different ways has the myth of Abraham and Isaac been interpreted? The greatest gift of literature, in my opinion, is the things we can learn about ourselves and our own personal places in the world through interpretation and thought that aren't easily quantifiable.

At face value, of course, it's nonsense, because as a religious person, or as a person that argues with religious people, we're used to viewing it as somehow fact, or claimed as somehow fact. As a person that doesn't believe the existence of God is very likely, however, we have the luxury of reading these books as something other than them being literal fact, and, personally, I'm sick of arguing with people over religion. So, instead of reading them with the intention of looking to form arguments against those that believe them to be actual representations of actual acts, or reading them with a subconscious feeling of "these can't be true!", it is actually possible to read them like the aforementioned Brothers Karazamov, or the myths that came before (and inspired them) or after them, and enjoy them as such. We can acknowledge them as being fanciful works that have inspired millions of people, as being important parts of the historical record, and being able to be read a multitude of different ways to gain a multitude of different emotions and questions and answers (again, not empirical truths, for the most part).

Being an Atheist, Agnostic, Ignostic (like me), or whatever other brand of "heathen" there is out there doesn't mean you need to dislike everything about religion (and that isn't specifically aimed at you, but some of the avowed atheists, etc., out there that make it a point to despise religion and all it has ever spawned). Maybe that's because I subscribe more to Daniel Dennett. I like Christmas carols, I like the sound of the muezzin, I love religious architecture, and I think the Bible can be a great read, even if Christians are by and large massively annoying. Doesn't have anything to do with being a heathen or not, though.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Sure, and if everyone treated the bible the way you do, there'd be nothing wrong. The problem is, way too many try and use the bible for the exact reasons you stated it shouldn't be used for, and it's detrimental to society and makes people come off as uneducated, intolerant and spiteful of others who don't share their non sensical beliefs.

Ya don't say?

My reply was really just something loosely stated. I wasn't particularly arguing with anyone.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

JohnnyB: I don't buy that. I think hatred is TAUGHT. Leave a white child, black child and Asian child in a room with a bunch of toys they will play fine together.

I think perfectly reasonable people that without the influence of the church would have grown up to treat all people with respect, but because their parents brought them up with religion, their misgivings are learned.

It seems awfully harsh of you to blame religion for racism. I hardly think that would be a trait for the religious alone.

Religions are basically just stories people are asked to believe in. Everything that comes beyond that is a product of people. Unscientific thinking, belief in dogma, prejudice, child abuse, hate etc. are just human traits that getting rid of religion alone would not change. I also don't see any necessary inconsistency between religious belief and the opposite of all those nasty human traits.

A rational, reasonable person does not need to deny spiritual beliefs about those things that go beyond our current knowledge. Similarly, ignorant, hateful, unscientific, selfish etc. people do not depend upon religion for their traits or require religious belief to pass them on. As an atheist, I see the stories, traditions, ceremonies, power structures and all that as just the creations of people. Seems silly then to blame the story rather than the people, and I think you would see just as much of those undesirable traits without the stories anyways. Religion is just a tool and an excuse. People would not all be wonderful without religion.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Remember when scientists were saying that creating the Higgs Boson particle could possibly create a black hole? Well, that turned out to be wrong.

Their claim didn't turn out to be wrong (as posed in your post). Do you see why?

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

And I really have no idea what that quote from "The Secret" has to do with my thoughts or argument.

You were comparing the theories on the frontier of science to the theories posed in the bible, and implied that they were equally plausible/likely/believable. Equating in value the theories of ignorant peasants from 2000-3000 years ago and the theories of today's most brilliant minds is insulting.

The bible has been proven false in pretty much every one of its claims (which are subject to disproof). Science isn't always right, but in the past few hundred years, science is doing pretty darn well.

[HotHotHeat]

It isn't even a matter of science being right and the bible being wrong. Scientists are out there discovering and learning. When something in our understanding of science changes, it's because we seek a deeper understanding of it.

Religion, by definition, removes very idea of allowing for discovery. How does one seek truth in religion? They read from a book unchanged in 2000 years or close there eyes and talk to themselves.

The inevitable place this conversation gets to is Christians and other theists arguing you can't prove the nonexistence of god.

...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

There is just as strong, if not a stronger argument that the bible is the single most destructive piece of literature to be published in the history of the world. It's caused countless wars and deaths, all in the name of something that no one has ever seen/heard from/experienced with the 5 senses.

The bible is not the cause of any of this. Nor, by implied extended argument, is Christianity. Man was putting his neighbour to the sword in the name of his gods for thousands of years before Christianity.

Religion is, and always has been, about control. Religion is man telling other men what to think and how to act and allowing ignorance and fear of the unknown to keep people in line. Which leads us into your next paragraph...

There is an undeniable link between our growing understanding of the world we live in and the downfall of religion. God was used to explain the unexplainable thousands of years ago. We've now very clearly moved beyond needing fairytales to understand how we came to be.

Yup. The opposite of religion is knowledge.

[RedCoffee]

I would pay $100 of my own money for GirlySports to die tonight and rise again tomorrow afternoon with full and complete knowledge that she just defied all medical and scientific logic. Maybe $125.

[Thor]

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Oh okay, I totally agree in general, as I even made a similar comment on the first page. But in the spirit of this thread, I would argue that the whole point of it is to discuss religion, so it's not really fair to label them as annoying, when the door was opened for discussion.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Like when people post Ricky Gervais and one of his million tweets about how he is an athiest. Like get over it already, we aren't your mum and you aren't 16 years old anymore, who cares if you don't believe in god?

I'm quite thankful you aren't my mother...she's dead and that would lead to a rather one sided argument.
If you don't like people poking at your religion either don't come into these threads or provide something, ANYTHING, that provides valid proof of your belief.
Feel free to pick at science if you like, I'd be happy to rebut any misunderstandings you might have.


Maybe you should start an "ongoing important religion thread" so we can all see how religion plays such an important role.

Oh and... Ricky Gervais is great! He took the mantle from one of the greatest atheists, George Carlin, and has no fear about poking the stick into the Christian beehive.