#Retire14

[GioforPM]

My own feeling is at the jersey should be retired. I think Fleury could have been one of the all time greats absent his issues and even with them he's HOF material easily.

If the holdup is just past behaviour for sure the Flames should be the bigger person so to speak and make the gesture. I suppose it's possible they have and he hasn't cooperated with what they want to do. The lack of interaction between him and the team is striking compared to almost every other retired Flame, especially ones who live here like Berezan.

[FireGilbert]

Yep just retire it already. Probably the 2nd best Flame ever, a former captain, and the face of the team during the 90s all while overcoming the most horrific adversity. Seems like a no brainer to me but clearly Flames management knows better.

[DownhillGoat]

Yeah, retire #14. I've been an advocate of that for years.

I'd actually like to see a spin off poll from this thread. There's been a lot of mentions of retiring #34, curious to see the general opinion, and reasons why.

Jarome was a solid leader, carried the team on his back more than once, and has 5 golds between the Olympics and World Jrs. While Kipper was bar-none the best goalie we've ever had, I find it hard to think a goalie without a cup (or at the very least a gold on the world stage) gets his jersey retired.

[awildermode]

Good for Boomer for bring this on the table. Most of us have been saying this for years.


Before ending the Forever A Flame program, Ken King should make Ken King as the last honouree...a la Bettman

[Huntingwhale]

https://grandstandcentral.com/theo-f...r-1c2e482d71a1

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

You get that Bettman has nothing whatsoever to do with hall of fame selection, right?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I read that Calgary4Life's long post to say:

1) Fleury didn't get along with some teammates. Meh. And maybe he didn't get along with Nieuwendyk because he knew Joe was going to screw the Flames?

1a) Apparently he may be a jerk to some people, but we shouldn't put any belief in that unless we have first hand experience. I'm assuming then that Calgary4Life has some first hand experience with this to put it out there, otherwise...

2) He admitted he didn't like to / doesn't need to practice. Again, meh. And unless he skipped out on practices, not sure what the big dust-up is unless we don't want players telling us anything about what they think.


If that was the "con" side of my ledger, I'd have a hard time seeing it overcome the "pro" side. To each their own.

Yes, it is easy to be dismissive of any post when you summarize them in such a manner. You can make basically anything sound trivial. This does not make my points wrong, irrelevant, or otherwise trivial in any way. Also, it wasn't just Nieuwendyk.


Your pro side is larger? Good for you. My con side is much larger, especially considering Fleury was always only interested in Fleury, not Flames. Even his offensive contributions were overblown. This is where I take a page out of Fleury's own book when he tried to take some of the luster off of Gaudreau:


I bet Fleury wouldn't have had the success he had in Calgary without much higher quality of teammates than what Iginla had to play through. Imagine replacing Iginla with Fleury on those teams. His point totals would have seriously taken a hit. Fleury's lack of quality teammates during his time in Calgary has always been the biggest exaggeration that keeps getting recycled.


Fleury was an incredibly selfish player in Calgary, a puck-hog who kept trying to do too much himself, who went to the media and told them how vastly superior he was as compared to the talentless scrubs he played with, and took selfish penalty after selfish penalty (with his diehard fans yelling "That's heart!").


Yeah, I am glad that he isn't honored or retired, and I hope he never does. He just isn't deserving of it, regardless of what your personal ledger says.

[PepsiFree]

If Fleury can forgive his abuser, we probably have it in us to forgive him for not being the best person to be around in the aftermath of that.

He’s one of the greatest Flames of all time. Whether you think he deserves to be honoured depends on the baggage you carry, I guess.

Fact of the matter is, his production and contributions (on and off the ice) put him in a league beyond every player but Iginla. When someone’s con list is comprised almost entirely of “I don’t think he’s nice” then you throw it out the window. He had every reason to fail in hockey and life, but he didn’t, he survived and he excelled.

Put him up in the rafters or don’t. He’ll always be honoured by fans.

[Beatle17]

Inflated stats from the era he played in. ###### bag wherever he played and teammates despised him. Always had an agenda all about Theo and still does. Ask the mother of his first kid how she feels about him.

Never retire his number, there are at least 5 other guys from the cup winning Flames that deserve the respect before Fleury does.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You get that Bettman has nothing whatsoever to do with hall of fame selection, right?

Except you know, being the current boss/former boss of the members on the committee.

No conflict of interest there


I think he deserves it eventually but the post you commented on is spot on

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Yes, it is easy to be dismissive of any post when you summarize them in such a manner. You can make basically anything sound trivial. This does not make my points wrong, irrelevant, or otherwise trivial in any way. Also, it wasn't just Nieuwendyk.


Your pro side is larger? Good for you. My con side is much larger, especially considering Fleury was always only interested in Fleury, not Flames. Even his offensive contributions were overblown. This is where I take a page out of Fleury's own book when he tried to take some of the luster off of Gaudreau:


I bet Fleury wouldn't have had the success he had in Calgary without much higher quality of teammates than what Iginla had to play through. Imagine replacing Iginla with Fleury on those teams. His point totals would have seriously taken a hit. Fleury's lack of quality teammates during his time in Calgary has always been the biggest exaggeration that keeps getting recycled.


Fleury was an incredibly selfish player in Calgary, a puck-hog who kept trying to do too much himself, who went to the media and told them how vastly superior he was as compared to the talentless scrubs he played with, and took selfish penalty after selfish penalty (with his diehard fans yelling "That's heart!").


Yeah, I am glad that he isn't honored or retired, and I hope he never does. He just isn't deserving of it, regardless of what your personal ledger says.

Paging This Post Is Terrible. Almost everything you posted here is absolute b.s. and hearsay. We get you hate the guy and that is your basis for why he should not be honoured but you are just so incredibly wrong.

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by natsmt

Retire #14 already. It's hard to believe some Flames fans even question this. Theo and Jerome are the two greatest Flames of all-time.

It should be 14, 12, 9, 2, 34 in the rafters. Set it right and abolish the embarrassing "Forever A Flame".

If there's one thing that seems unanimous in here - it's that. Worst idea ever (even worse than flags on shoulders).

[Matata]

I seem to change my opinion every 5 seconds reading this thread is, but the gut instinct wants 14 retired.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Yeah, I am glad that he isn't honored or retired, and I hope he never does. He just isn't deserving of it, regardless of what your personal ledger says.

So basically you have a grudge against the guy. Got it. Fleury can be the first "Begrudgingly a Flame" banner honoree.

[edn88]

I hate retired numbers. I would love to see someone wearing #9 on this team or any other team. As much as I liked Iginla, don't really care if someone else wears #12.


As for retiring #14 - I wasn't a Flames fan from Fleury's prime, so I only can say what I saw of Fleury from the end of his time here - and what I have seen and read of late. For me - it was when I read his book and how he won't take personal accountability for anything - he was awesome and the only reason the teams he was on lost was other people's fault (even the whole Horse Lake Thunder thing).



So, don't like the idea of retiring any number, let alone #14.


Does Fleury belong in the Hall of Fame? I would say yes - based on his career numbers and how much he impacted the game while he was playing. But I don't think the Flames owe him anything in terms of jersey retirement.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If the holdup is just past behaviour for sure the Flames should be the bigger person so to speak and make the gesture. I suppose it's possible they have and he hasn't cooperated with what they want to do. The lack of interaction between him and the team is striking compared to almost every other retired Flame, especially ones who live here like Berezan.

It wouldn't be out of character for him to tell the team that Forever a Flame is a joke and he wants no part of it because he's deserving of a full number retirement.

And that would just make the people who like him like him more and the people who dislike him dislike him more.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Paging This Post Is Terrible. Almost everything you posted here is absolute b.s. and hearsay. We get you hate the guy and that is your basis for why he should not be honoured but you are just so incredibly wrong.

Please - this is hardly a "this post is terrible" worthy post other than it is a post that isn't throwing platitudes at one of your favorite players of all time.


Some people love him, some people don't. Ignore all the abundant character issues away, and you are left looking at:


- Achievements as a Flame
- Achievements/Awards league-wide



So, what current achievements does he have with the Flames?
1) Most SHG (28)



That's it. Sure, you can argue that I am being rather dismissive here as a player doesn't necessarily have to own 'x' amount of awards.


Let's look at league-wide awards. Stuff like the Art Ross, Hart, etc. Hmm... interesting. Zero. Zilch.


I get it. Fleury was a hero to many here for his accomplishments (?), his heart (?), and so on. I can understand why a large contingent of fans love this guy to death, but it is also very easily understandable why many don't either.



I just think the grade should be higher than a Theoren Fleury on getting honored. A better leader, a better example on and off the ice, a better team mate, etc. His stats alone are probably good enough to be retired - arguably anyway for a franchise - but hardly amazing enough for his character issues to be glossed-over and forgotten about.



You disagree, that's fine. Let's not pretend that "This Post is Terrible" should be given to any post that implies a player's character shouldn't be scrutinized, especially when it comes to something like honoring/retiring a player's jersey. On and off the ice should matter.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

So, what current achievements does he have with the Flames?
1) Most SHG (28)



That's it. Sure, you can argue that I am being rather dismissive here as a player doesn't necessarily have to own 'x' amount of awards.

This is not a “sure you can argue...” point, it’s a blatantly misrepresentative one. How about a Stanley Cup? How about being over a point per game in nearly 800 games played?

You want to talk about off the ice? How about being the recipient of the Canadian Humanitarian Award? Or the Queen’s Jubilee Medallion awarded to those who have made a significant contribution to Canada?

Your post is terrible because it’s not a matter of you disliking Fleury, it’s you disliking Fleury and actively discrediting his accomplishments as a Flame and as Canadian. It’s embarrassing to watch as a fellow Flames fan, honestly.

You look at where he lands in contributions on and off the ice and the decision is obvious. If Canada can honour him, and (as you said) off the ice should matter, why can’t Calgary?

[jayswin]

Yeah, it's clearly way too personal with you to be claiming others are being biased, Calgary4life.

[Wormius]

2 appearances on the men’s Olympic team, coming away with a gold medal at the SLC games. I would say that the Olympic gold and a Stanley Cup should be enough to get your number retired.