Summer 2015 Prospect Ranking - Round 18

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by bax

I'm no expert on Rafikov, but I find it surprising that so many are bashing him because "he may never come to North America". Wasn't there a couple articles last off season where he was quoted that the NHL was his dream and that he just wants to honor his Russian contract before making the commitment to come over?

Yes, that's correct.

Originally Posted by codynw

The thing I don't like about Rafikov is that he's likely a career KHL player. He's not even a flight risk because he's never even played in a league over here, and to me it doesn't seem like he's even that interested. Nothing against him, if he wants to stay in Russia that's fine, but I can't vote for a guy who doesn't want to play here.

Where do you get the impression that he doesn't want to play here?

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by bax

I'm no expert on Rafikov, but I find it surprising that so many are bashing him because "he may never come to North America". Wasn't there a couple articles last off season where he was quoted that the NHL was his dream and that he just wants to honor his Russian contract before making the commitment to come over?

Thank you! Rafikov signing with the KHL should be the least of our worries. Our defensive depth is insane, and Rafikov would be getting time as the number 5-7 in Stockton. But he clearly stated he wanted to come here! And his upside is better than kulak guys come on. He's a better player right now and will be a better player. I like kulak but I don't think Rafikov would be in the ECHL and if he was I believe he would be better than kulak.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I am definitely not certain of the bolded part at all. They have just as good a chance as Wotherspoon and we don't know what kind of pro players we have in Hickey or Morrison yet, although they have very good skills. Defense at the NHL level is mostly about consistency and taking care of your own zone first. I'll take guys who have shown well at the AHL level over guys who have yet to turn pro...most of the time. Kulak also has some good offensive skills, especially with his point shot, so he could be valuable offensively too.

I get what you're saying in terms of depth, but when you look at this list, there's no reason to not vote for Kulak above a lot of the rest of these prospects.

I continue to be surprised how, at this stage in this process, people can speak in absolutes like this.
Here are just some of the reasons why someone could choose to vote for someone other than him
- He spent about half the year in the ECHL
- He is competing for a long-term spot against a lot of other guys
- Someone like Agostino enjoyed more progression in the second half of the year
- We know the organization thinks they have "a player" in Austin Carroll

Probably more reasons. The point is when we are debating the likes of Kulak v. Agostino - I don't think any choice is that clear.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I am definitely not certain of the bolded part at all. They have just as good a chance as Wotherspoon and we don't know what kind of pro players we have in Hickey or Morrison yet, although they have very good skills. Defense at the NHL level is mostly about consistency and taking care of your own zone first. I'll take guys who have shown well at the AHL level over guys who have yet to turn pro...most of the time. Kulak also has some good offensive skills, especially with his point shot, so he could be valuable offensively too.

I get what you're saying in terms of depth, but when you look at this list, there's no reason to not vote for Kulak above a lot of the rest of these prospects.

Fair comments.

But there are only so many jobs - I would argue that there is 2, maybe 3 jobs maximum for this group.

1) I think Wotherspoon is a fair bit ahead of them
2) I think Hickey is the best of the bunch
3) Kylington has all kinds of potential.

We haven't seen enough of Morrison to be sure. Or Rafikov for that matter. Or Andersson.

Kulak and Culkin both have potential and are good prospects. I just think the window is rapidly closing for them.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I continue to be surprised how, at this stage in this process, people can speak in absolutes like this.

You took my thought out of context. I was responding to Enoch Root who said that he wasn't voting for him because he figured he was too far down the depth chart. My point was only that even if he's further down the depth chart, that doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for him because (IMO) he's shown good progress over time and has a decent shot at making the NHL still. I wasn't saying you can't vote for anyone else, and I certainly don't have a problem with someone disagreeing about Kulak's potential.

I also hesitate to use the ECHL stint as an argument against Kulak. He was caught in a numbers game with a LOT of defenders in Adirondack last year, and the organization wanted to make sure he had plenty of minutes to work on some things. He did, excelled in that league, returned to the AHL, and even earned a call up for a game. That tells me the organization still thought very highly of him.

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

You took my thought out of context. I was responding to Enoch Root who said that he wasn't voting for him because he figured he was too far down the depth chart. My point was only that even if he's further down the depth chart, that doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for him because (IMO) he's shown good progress over time and has a decent shot at making the NHL still. I wasn't saying you can't vote for anyone else, and I certainly don't have a problem with someone disagreeing about Kulak's potential.



I also hesitate to use the ECHL stint as an argument against Kulak. He was caught in a numbers game with a LOT of defenders in Adirondack last year, and the organization wanted to make sure he had plenty of minutes to work on some things. He did, excelled in that league, returned to the AHL, and even earned a call up for a game. That tells me the organization still thought very highly of him.

However the problem is if our defensive depth is so good how can he make it thru to the NHL? I don't like how people use that argument


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[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Fair comments.

But there are only so many jobs - I would argue that there is 2, maybe 3 jobs maximum for this group.

1) I think Wotherspoon is a fair bit ahead of them
2) I think Hickey is the best of the bunch
3) Kylington has all kinds of potential.

We haven't seen enough of Morrison to be sure. Or Rafikov for that matter. Or Andersson.

Kulak and Culkin both have potential and are good prospects. I just think the window is rapidly closing for them.

Again, I'm not sure that's the case at all. That was Culkin's first pro season and he's still just 21. Pretty early to be declaring his window closing. Kulak is also just 21 and it was technically his first pro year last year too outside of a 6 game period at the end of his junior career.

Also:
1) Wotherspoon is ahead because he's a year older and had a season's experience in both the AHL and NHL in his first pro year. I'd be worried if he didn't look better.
2) Hickey made a big jump going from the AJHL to a top college team, and he did very well in his first year. I would like to see a larger sample size and some pro games before I declare him better, but I agree he has very good skills that are NHL capable.
3) Kylington's skills are elite, but the way he thinks the game and reads plays needs a LOT of work. That scares me for a defenseman, but I think he can become better with a lot of coaching and time in the lower leagues.

There's just a lot of unknowns here to begin declaring very young prospect's windows closed. Often it's the guy who works the hardest at his game who makes it to the NHL. See: Josh Jooris, or Mark Giordano.

[savardandjokinen]

I think Culkin is doing good, but kulak needs to step it up


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[The Swedish Flame]

I think it's my third time voting Agostino.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Again, I'm not sure that's the case at all. That was Culkin's first pro season and he's still just 21. Pretty early to be declaring his window closing. Kulak is also just 21 and it was technically his first pro year last year too outside of a 6 game period at the end of his junior career.

Also:
1) Wotherspoon is ahead because he's a year older and had a season's experience in both the AHL and NHL in his first pro year. I'd be worried if he didn't look better.
2) Hickey made a big jump going from the AJHL to a top college team, and he did very well in his first year. I would like to see a larger sample size and some pro games before I declare him better, but I agree he has very good skills that are NHL capable.
3) Kylington's skills are elite, but the way he thinks the game and reads plays needs a LOT of work. That scares me for a defenseman, but I think he can become better with a lot of coaching and time in the lower leagues.

There's just a lot of unknowns here to begin declaring very young prospect's windows closed. Often it's the guy who works the hardest at his game who makes it to the NHL. See: Josh Jooris, or Mark Giordano.

It's awesome that we are debating about having too many good young defensive prospects crowding each other out.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Lol, just realized outside of the top 3, I've only voted for Klimchuk, MacDonald and Agostino over the last 15 rounds. It's funny, last year I remember voting for the winner a lot, so my vote generally jived with the collective will of CP. This year, not so much.

[mikephoen]

I went with Agostino over Rafikov this round. I had been planning on going Rafikov this round, but the pro-Agostino camp won me over. I'll likely go Rafikov next and then maybe Kulak. But I'm also heavily considering Mangiapane. Anyone know more about him? His stat progression looks awesome.

[SuperMatt18]

It is crazy how fast the young defensive depth was turned around.

Last year it felt like was pretty much just Brodie and Wotherspoon for young d-men.

Then we added Hamilton, and Nakladal at the NHL level.

Hickey, Gilmour, Culkin, and Kulak took decent steps at their respective levels with Hickey being the real big surprise.

And we added Morrison, Andersson, and Kylington at the end of the season to really shore up the prospect list.

Plus you still have Rafikov, Olias Mattison, Sieloff, and Kanzig as guys who could be dark horses at this point.

If you feel like Brodie, Hamilton, and Gio are the core moving forward then we really only need 3 or 4 of those other 13 d-men to progress into good NHLers. I don't mind those odds.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I went with Agostino over Rafikov this round. I had been planning on going Rafikov this round, but the pro-Agostino camp won me over. I'll likely go Rafikov next and then maybe Kulak. But I'm also heavily considering Mangiapane. Anyone know more about him? His stat progression looks awesome.

That's who I'm going with next, he has late round steal written all over him. I've really been a fan of the skilled players our scouts have been nabbing lately and I think Mangiapane will continue that trend. He had a phenomenal year last year, one season after being an undrafted walk-on. I think he's going to lead the OHL in scoring next year and he will rocket up these charts to a top 10 spot in the 2016 edition.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by codynw

I can't vote for a guy who doesn't want to play here

You voted for Chad Billins.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Lol, just realized outside of the top 3, I've only voted for Klimchuk, MacDonald and Agostino over the last 15 rounds. It's funny, last year I remember voting for the winner a lot, so my vote generally jived with the collective will of CP. This year, not so much.

Yeah, I realized that I am on a different page than a lot of people on the order this year.

But looking at how many minority wins there have been, I think it is probably true for a lot of people. There is a lot of hair splitting for me though after the top 5 or so (and a lot of gut feelings or hunches).

I think we also have more dark horses than usual. For example, I have not voted for Mangiapane or Karnaukhov yet, but I have been considering them since like round 10.

[RyZ]

I have been voting Mangiapane for a few rounds now. I have never seen him play myself but a number of the eastern/OHL scouts I follow are pretty high on him and think he has a legit shot at a middle 6 position on an NHL squad in his future.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by getbak

You voted for Chad Billins.

[jg13]

Mangianpane should get some love soon.

finished 8th in scoring in the OHL and won't even crack our top 20 prospects. Absolutely insane how deep we've gotten in the last 2 years.

[1991 Canadian]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

How does anyone even know anything about Rafikov? Is it from the wjhc where people saw him play a game or two? To me he's a guy drafted in the 7th round who is very unlikely to ever even come over here. Not sure how, with that info, anyone could rank him above Agostino. Agostino made clear and remarkable progress last year in his first pro season, Rafikov is a mystery.

There was something else besides the World Juniors that I remember watching him in, Russian Super Series maybe?

Regardless, he's a 20 year old, decent sized, smooth skating dmen that has played very well in the tournaments I've seen him in. I barely remember Agostino's stint with the Flames two years ago and I didn't watch the AHL this year. I can take peoples word that he played well in the AHL this year, but his window is closing.

I don't think the 7th round is a reflection of Rafikov's ability. There were only 8 Russian players taken in his draft year. He probably would've been a 4th round pick in the early 2000s drafts. He'd probably be a 3rd round pick if he was Canadian/American/Western European.

Sometimes you have to go with the mystery box. He's playing the KHL this year as a 20 year old. Of all our prospects, he's the one I'm most curious to see how he does.

Agostino is closer to being a NHL player. But I think this is one of the times when the mystery box potential wins out.