Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I would add his coach hiring process to the list as well.

Intentionally left off to annoy all of you.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The two single biggest issues the team faces stem from the failure of Bennett to pan out into a 1C and the signing of James Neal. The picks traded for Hamonic (and lesser picks) do not impact the present struggles anywhere near like those two things. To some degree Neal was mitigated but not nearly as it could have been.

Look, people need to get over the Bennett thing. One draft pick, 7 years ago. And it’s not like they are eating a lot of cap with his contract.

Some picks like Gaudreau pan out unbelievably well, some like Bennett don’t.

Hamonic was acquired for three chances for something else to pan out.

What is this Tkachuk kid?
Why is Tre spending 4.5 M on Rasmus?

Lots of moving parts and death by a thousand cuts with Tre.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Fair. I am typically on the side of the "core is to blame" Flames fandom spectrum, but I definitely was not a Gulutzan fan.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I rank Hamonic is the second biggest blunder, including because the Flames didn't include any lottery protection. Even though Noah Dobson is a good player, it could have been a lot worse. It speaks to how much the club over-estimated where they were in terms of competing.

But there are two things to look at here.

Reasons why the Flames don't have a competitive team at this sage

1. The core of the team failing to take another step as anticipated
2. Sam Bennett not being a top of the line-up forward
3. Poor UFA signings
4. Shedding of picks in some bad deals (Hamonic namely)

Some of the above were out of the GM's control and some were.

So then we can look at

The mistakes the GM made
1. Overall trying to accelerate the re-build to compete sooner (which actually then drives almost all actual mistakes made)
2. Signing James Neal
3. Hamonic Deal
4. Other bad UFAs
5. Shedding too many picks in some bad deals

Something like that.

This is good. But I think you need to add moves not made. Not individual things like Stone or Kadri, but in general bringing back the same core after early playoff failures, resulting in deterioration of value. It's a dark time right now so everything looks bad but his patience with the roster just doesn't seem to have really paid off with any single player.

The coaching carousel hasn't helped either.

[Manhattanboy]

As I mentioned in the other thread, you take a lousy team to start, add a bad coach, add no preseason, and finally add a bunch of mini-series against better teams with coaches who can quickly adjust, and the results are predictable.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is good. But I think you need to add moves not made. Not individual things like Stone or Kadri, but in general bringing back the same core after early playoff failures, resulting in deterioration of value. It's a dark time right now so everything looks bad but his patience with the roster just doesn't seem to have really paid off with any single player.

The coaching carousel hasn't helped either.

Yeah I had that on the list too but couldn't figure out how to phrase it. I don't fully buy into the notion that they should have traded Gio after his Norris season. I get the Bill Belichick approach and do think this club should be more ruthless in how it handles assets, but that problem seems so ingrained that I think it is more than a GM issue. Meaning I think if the GM told owners they were trading their Norris trophy, when the owners are expecting a team to compete - they would have not allowed it.

And I think they should have traded Johnny 2 years ago but some of the same issues apply. I think, after the Avs debacle, the mindset was that perhaps this was the teaching moment the key players needed to take that next step. Then the next step never came. So it's easy to look back and say they should have traded them, but it was also rationale at the time to give them another chance.

So then you go to last off-season, where I sincerely believe there was appetite to make changes to the forward group but then the trade market cratered.

So I agree in concept, but in practice I see the challenges. But you know I'm someone that has been advocating to changes for the forward group for a long time.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Look, people need to get over the Bennett thing. One draft pick, 7 years ago. And it’s not like they are eating a lot of cap with his contract.

Some picks like Gaudreau pan out unbelievably well, some like Bennett don’t.

Hamonic was acquired for three chances for something else to pan out.

What is this Tkachuk kid?
Why is Tre spending 4.5 M on Rasmus?

Lots of moving parts and death by a thousand cuts with Tre.

Yeah lest we forget the $11.2 million D pairing that is getting owned every second shift.

At this point, the list of what has worked is a whole lot shorter than what hasn't.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah I had that on the list too but couldn't figure out how to phrase it. I don't fully buy into the notion that they should have traded Gio after his Norris season. I get the Bill Belichick approach and do think this club should be more ruthless in how it handles assets, but that problem seems so ingrained that I think it is more than a GM issue. Meaning I think if the GM told owners they were trading their Norris trophy, when the owners are expecting a team to compete - they would have not allowed it.

And I think they should have traded Johnny 2 years ago but some of the same issues apply. I think, after the Avs debacle, the mindset was that perhaps this was the teaching moment the key players needed to take that next step. Then the next step never came. So it's easy to look back and say they should have traded them, but it was also rationale at the time to give them another chance.

So then you go to last off-season, where I sincerely believe there was appetite to make changes to the forward group but then the trade market cratered.

So I agree in concept, but in practice I see the challenges. But you know I'm someone that has been advocating to changes for the forward group for a long time.

Yeah this is all pretty sensible. It's very hard to pinpoint where it all went wrong or to say this is exactly where he should have made a move.

But here we are and it's hard to be confident that he's the guy that has it figured out now. And while I agree with the challenges in last year's trade market, there was very little speculation about the Flames last summer. I remember Friedman more than once saying the Flames weren't shopping guys like Monahan and Gaudreau and it would take a mind blowing offer to move them. IMO that was not the right approach.

[Stud_McCool]

I don't blame Treliving for keeping the core intact after the Avs series. Like mentioned earlier, it was a teachable moment that a lot of us thought the core needed to learn from and use it to excel the following season. Remember that same playoff where the Lightning got swept and the whole team was demoralized? Fast-forward the following year and the exact same team went on to win the Cup and continues to be an elite team.
Hindsight is 20/20 now, but it's hard to fault Treliving for staying loyal to his guys. I would've liked the Flames to follow the Lightning's path to success, but it just didn't go according to plan.

Having said that, I do agree we need a new GM to oversee this next phase. This is now Darryl's team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Stud_McCool

I don't blame Treliving for keeping the core intact after the Avs series. Like mentioned earlier, it was a teachable moment that a lot of us thought the core needed to learn from and use it to excel the following season. Remember that same playoff where the Lightning got swept and the whole team was demoralized? Fast-forward the following year and the exact same team went on to win the Cup and continues to be an elite team.
Hindsight is 20/20 now, but it's hard to fault Treliving for staying loyal to his guys. I would've liked the Flames to follow the Lightning's path to success, but it just didn't go according to plan.

Having said that, I do agree we need a new GM to oversee this next phase. This is now Darryl's team.

If this is in fact "Darryl's team" then what GM is going to even want to come on board to implement some one else's vision? And how many GMs will want to sign on with the Flames but with the caveat that he cannot bring in his own coach? I could see Dean Lombardi as an option if this was a job he wanted, but I am not at all confident that he would rebuild the roster through the draft, which is what needs to happen.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I'm having a hard time seeing how Raymond's signing would have changed the trajectory of this club. Pretty inconsequential at the end of the day, I would say. No point in crying over spilled milk that happened, what, 4-5 years ago? I mean, when he was signed who would have been a better replacement, all things considered? Did it actually prevent the Flames from doing anything?

Treliving does deserve some criticism, but this is hardly worth mention. I would say most GM's have made similar moves over their tenures.

Paul Byron.

The signing itself is unfortunate (and feels heavily influenced by Burkie). The subsequent decision making is unforgivable. Though I also acknowledge there's a strong chance Byron doesn't pan out even if he stays.

[Manhattanboy]

Treliving isn't going anywhere. His contract is relatively new.

How many ex-employees do you expect the owners to keep on the payroll?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Paul Byron.

The signing itself is unfortunate (and feels heavily influenced by Burkie). The subsequent decision making is unforgivable. Though I also acknowledge there's a strong chance Byron doesn't pan out even if he stays.

I’m still sour over losing Paul Byron. He was fast, relentless, had game breaking ability, played with heart and is the type of player the Flames could use today. I don’t know how often I’ve heard the last 3 Flames coaches (including Darryl) talk about playing with more pace, but Paul Byron can play with pace. Instead, they let go of Paul Byron to make room for that useless plug Brandon Bollig.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Paul Byron.

The signing itself is unfortunate (and feels heavily influenced by Burkie). The subsequent decision making is unforgivable. Though I also acknowledge there's a strong chance Byron doesn't pan out even if he stays.

So if Paul Byron stays, what does that mean for the Flames today? Are they challenging the Leafs for top spot? Obviously there’s no telling. The point being, these are relatively minor decisions. They’re also similar moves made by, arguably all GM’s across the league. Brad Treliving isn’t the only GM buying out players or waiving others.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It can work as long as we can trade our non-producing core for better, younger ,cheaper and more productive players.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Simple!!

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Look, people need to get over the Bennett thing. One draft pick, 7 years ago. And it’s not like they are eating a lot of cap with his contract.

Some picks like Gaudreau pan out unbelievably well, some like Bennett don’t.

Hamonic was acquired for three chances for something else to pan out.

What is this Tkachuk kid?
Why is Tre spending 4.5 M on Rasmus?

Lots of moving parts and death by a thousand cuts with Tre.

Look, I know Sam Bennett is a sore spot for you, but it’s the truth. The Flames rebuilt for pretty much 1 full season (13-14) and their prize was Sam Bennett. After that they made the playoffs and went pretty much all in every year from there. It’s not all on Sam Bennett, actually it’s probably more on the Flames’ management group for ending the rebuild so early and making so many mistakes.

But a elite #1 center is pretty much the only the thing the Flames are missing. They’ve had a strong D-core for years, have the goaltender now and have always had the wingers, but that elusive #1 center that Sam Bennett didn’t become is a glaring hole. The team even took their best RW and stuck him at center to fill that hole which just caused another hole. This roster is just a sinking ship right now and truthfully, Brad Treliving hasn’t done much to patch those holes. He tried to weld it shut only to create more holes. Just a complete disaster of a season.

[Jaydee]

Bob Hartley should never have been fired

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Stud_McCool

I don't blame Treliving for keeping the core intact after the Avs series. Like mentioned earlier, it was a teachable moment that a lot of us thought the core needed to learn from and use it to excel the following season. Remember that same playoff where the Lightning got swept and the whole team was demoralized? Fast-forward the following year and the exact same team went on to win the Cup and continues to be an elite team.

Look at what Tampa did before that. Not even close to a valid comparison.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

So if Paul Byron stays, what does that mean for the Flames today? Are they challenging the Leafs for top spot? Obviously there’s no telling. The point being, these are relatively minor decisions. They’re also similar moves made by, arguably all GM’s across the league. Brad Treliving isn’t the only GM buying out players or waiving others.

It contributes to the overall problem. Tre put too much stock into his core and because it’s not a strong group in comparison to other cores, he had less leeway to make mistakes; but there’s been a lot of them. So that leads us to this season where the culmination of all the mistakes resulted in him trying to patch up every line with a bargain bin plug and they’ve all failed to close the leaks and now the ship is sinking faster then it ever has before.

[calumniate]

I wonder how many opposition coaches just go: 'they have 4th liners on their right wing. Double meat subs!'

For that reason, I'm out ��