Brad Treliving needs to go

[Vinny01]

Hearing Treliving discuss how much he communicates with Sutter and how they are on the same page made me wonder in general. I think we all know Sutter is back next year if he wants to be and that he has a relationship with ownership. I do wonder if during the organizational evaluation that comes with the offseason will have Sutter getting a fair bit of say if he thinks Treliving can get the right players on the ice for him.


I do wonder about the prospects of a Dean Lombardi to take over? I could see Philly also offering him that role as they have had a disappointing season to say the least. Apparently his contract with them is up in the offseason and if Sutter tells Edwards that is who he thinks can build a winner here ASAP then I wouldn’t discount that move from happening.

Basically Darryl is here for another 1-2 years at minimum so he needs to have a strong relationship with the GM. Either keep the guy you have, promote a guy from within, or bring in someone with a previous track record of success with Sutter

[Strange Brew]

So we’re still going down the path of finding a coach that fits this roster?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So we’re still going down the path of finding a coach that fits this roster?

We are past blaming coaches. The team should be heading down the path of building a better roster but that's not going to happen overnight as it will have to take a step back to take steps forward. The coach and organization have to be honest with what they have and where things are going.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think he is. Is he Brad's guy or the owners guy? Is this roster a good fit for Sutter hockey? I don't think so but I keep hearing he didn't take the job to man a rebuild so I'm not exactly sure what the plan is seeing the team is going to be worse after trading away Gaudreau and whomever else they move on from in the offseason. Is the plan for Sutter to coach a low talent group of grinders in hopes of scraping by into the last playoff spot in a league that favors speed and skill today? Not bad enough to be able to draft the elite talent the organization desperately needs but not good enough to ever be a cup contender has been this organization's trademark over the decades and it's led us to perpetual failure and mediocrity yet that seems to be the path taken once again.

Based on the decline of key players and the high probability of icing a less talented roster next season, the logical direction is to head down the road of a rebuild but supposedly the coach didn't accept the job for that so I guess I just don't understand what's going on with this organization as it's like they are just making things up as they go rather than follow any plan.

Well you make an assumption the team is only going to get worse. That could be the case or it could be that the circumstances of this season have snowballed the negativity and this team is not as bad as you think they are. If the team is able to move pieces around and find players that better fit the style of play Sutter wants then why can’t they be significantly better next year? Maybe after another year of mediocre goaltending the organization will finally move on from Sigalet and take a run at upcoming free agents Ian Clarke?

Markstrom hasn’t been the same since his injury and Tkachuk is having a brutal season. Couple that with slumps from guys like Dube and Valimaki it isn’t shocking to think this could be vastly improved team next year. They discussed on the FAN how Trotz has been able to get the Islanders where they are because of structure and all the hosts agreed that is something that Sutter could accomplish in Calgary but the personnel needs to change.

I think the rebuild path is one that could be explored but having some patience is critical considering this team is falling during a unique Covid shortened season. Make some sweeping changes that are overdue, come back with a full training camp and culture expectations set and see what happens before we start selling off pieces for pennies on the dollar (which I think they are already forced to do with Gaudreau)

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Meh.

I think they should keep the core other than Gio.

But heck keep him if they can't move him.

It's the bottom half of the team I've never been impressed with.

I never thought Ward shouldn't had the job, but it was what it was due to the circumstances. I actually feel really bad for him.

Honestly I don't think trading away pieces is really going to do anything, just use the draft picks you're given. Try and draft as best they can.

The bottom half of the roster rarely wins or loses games.
The league is now about your best players and if they are better on any given night than the other team's best players.
They get the most ice-time. They make the impact.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The bottom half of the roster rarely wins or loses games.
The league is now about your best players and if they are better on any given night than the other team's best players.
They get the most ice-time. They make the impact.

I agree with this which is why I believe the regression of the top players is the reason this rebuild has ended up as a failure.

Monahan and Gaudreau teased us 2 years ago when they put up 82 and 99pts along with Lindholm and Tkachuk producing 74 and 77pts. Those 4 were supposed to stack up against the likes of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nuge, Matthews-Marner-Tavares-Nylander, Schiefele-Connor-Wheeler-Dubois, and Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat, and Miller.

They are easily the worst group of forwards among those teams and are right there with Gallagher-Anderson-Toffoli-Suzuki for being straight up mediocre. Montreal and Calgary are similar where they simply lack the high end talent. It looked like that wasn’t going to be a problem for the Flames with their big 4 forwards being supported by guys like Backlund, Dube, Mangiapane but when the top end talent doesn’t live up to potential the team doesn’t look deep at all.


This rebuild failed because the top players failed to hit their ceilings for more than 60 or so games in 2018/19. Just like the 2015 season that 2019 season was an outlier that gave the organization and fans hope that this team would and could be a legit contender. Analytics made 2019 look like less of a fluke but it was still many players having a career season. Maybe they should send the team to China again before next season starts or something to help them get their mojo back?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This was a pre-existing problem.

Darryl is seems pretty openly critical of this team's "style" and is working on getting them to play with more pace.

I don't think this is coaching problem - it used to be part of it, but not anymore. Not since Darryl.

Now we just have to face the fact that this team has a bottom-10 roster. If we look at things in hindsight, you could see it coming. The train was derailing during the Gulutzan years and it just kept sliding off the rails more and more every year. The core of this team just never developed beyond where they were years ago, and they built up a plethora of bad habits along the way.

Monahan developed into a one-dimensional player that relies on Gaudreau to get him the puck in high danger areas, and never grew his game beyond that.

Gaudreau is elite on the rush, but quite poor in most other circumstances.

Tkachuk came into the league as a power forward who focused on crashing the net, drawing lots of penalties and generally being a pain. He's now just not effective.

Backlund has stayed steady, but he is what he is. He'd slot nicely on a team that needed a shut-down centre who can pitch in offensively, but this team pretty much needs him to be more than he's capable of being for it to be successful.

Giordano, father time is catching up. I can't be critical of this guy, he gives it his all.

Lindholm is one of the bright spots, but as our best forward, that's not a high enough ceiling for a successful team.

Mangiapane is a good support piece, but Dube, Andersson, and Valimaki are all players who have failed to take steps forward this year - and none of these guys are tracking to be elite. So where's the future?

Hanifin is solidifying his spot as a minute-munching 2nd pair defenceman, but not a cornerstone piece.

Tanev is having a hell of a bounce back season and a great first year for the Flames, but his contract still scares and I don't think he'll ever be as good as he is this season again.

Add up the parts and this team's roster just is what it is. Outside of 18/19 this team has been a bubble team every single season under Treliving. With one of the poorest prospect pools in the league, I'm not sure why we should be defending Treliving at this point. The team just isn't good and it isn't primed to take a big step forward. The rush back to the middle is complete.

That's a great post and summary.

I just don't agree with the last paragraph, as I would have assumed Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau were 2/3 of a first line that you could build around.

He (me/we) was wrong in the end, but that's the principal failure of this roster/organization. The best players didn't turn out to be all that good.

He improved the drafting, which has added a lot of complimentary players, brought in other key pieces through trades and free agent signings.

Overall it should have worked better than it did, but he hitched the wagon to two star players that are no longer really stars.

So ultimately he was wrong and you could fire him, and I suppose if his coach hires stunted some players that's his fault as well, but I'm still in the camp of having the same assumptions as the GM, so I wouldn't fire him with hindsight available.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree with this which is why I believe the regression of the top players is the reason this rebuild has ended up as a failure.

Monahan and Gaudreau teased us 2 years ago when they put up 82 and 99pts along with Lindholm and Tkachuk producing 74 and 77pts. Those 4 were supposed to stack up against the likes of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nuge, Matthews-Marner-Tavares-Nylander, Schiefele-Connor-Wheeler-Dubois, and Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat, and Miller.

They are easily the worst group of forwards among those teams and are right there with Gallagher-Anderson-Toffoli-Suzuki for being straight up mediocre. Montreal and Calgary are similar where they simply lack the high end talent. It looked like that wasn’t going to be a problem for the Flames with their big 4 forwards being supported by guys like Backlund, Dube, Mangiapane but when the top end talent doesn’t live up to potential the team doesn’t look deep at all.


This rebuild failed because the top players failed to hit their ceilings for more than 60 or so games in 2018/19. Just like the 2015 season that 2019 season was an outlier that gave the organization and fans hope that this team would and could be a legit contender. Analytics made 2019 look like less of a fluke but it was still many players having a career season. Maybe they should send the team to China again before next season starts or something to help them get their mojo back?

I've said all year, and after last year, that I don't think they're good enough, no matter who the coach is. I understand the hope that, with depth stepping up, they could compete. But that hope was pretty much merely because that's what we had to work with.

If you work through the events from say 2013 to now, it's hard to see any other result though. No elite 1C was available. So I'm not heaping a lot of blame on Treliving. Or even the players for being who they are. I think they don't max their effort a lot, but even if they do, it's just not enough.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's a great post and summary.

I just don't agree with the last paragraph, as I would have assumed Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau were 2/3 of a first line that you could build around.

He (me/we) was wrong in the end, but that's the principal failure of this roster/organization. The best players didn't turn out to be all that good.

He improved the drafting, which has added a lot of complimentary players, brought in other key pieces through trades and free agent signings.

Overall it should have worked better than it did, but he hitched the wagon to two star players that are no longer really stars.

So ultimately he was wrong and you could fire him, and I suppose if his coach hires stunted some players that's his fault as well, but I'm still in the camp of having the same assumptions as the GM, so I wouldn't fire him with hindsight available.

I agree with this and I agree with most of what Comix posted as well except I do not think this is a bottom 10 roster in the league. I mean it is this year but I do think we have some really good players having some really bad seasons with Tkachuk and Markstrom leading the way. It is that reasoning which is why I hesitate to blow the whole thing up and start tanking.

Tree hung on to the Monahan and Gaudreau combo for too long however and we don’t need hindsight for that. A move should have happened after the bubble last summer and Treliving decided he thought they had a better chance of bouncing back than the offers he received. Unfortunately he guesses wrong there and the assets are devalued even more

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The bottom half of the roster rarely wins or loses games.
The league is now about your best players and if they are better on any given night than the other team's best players.
They get the most ice-time. They make the impact.

They might not win you games but they can lose you games.

I know +\- isn’t a great stat but our bottom 6 has cratered them in goal share this year. Especially prior to Ryan coming back.

Here are the guys that I’d say are our top 4 forwards.

Tkachuk: GF-30 GA-21 58.8%
Lindholm: GF-29 GA-21 58.0%
Gaudreau: GF-23 GA-18 56.1%
Monahan: GF-18 GA-17 51.4%

Maybe not the production you want, especially from 13/23, but overall they are still green on the ledger this year. Crazy for 13/23 since they didn’t score a goal with Ritchie as their winger the last month.

And the rest:

Ryan: GF-9 GA-7 56.25%
Mangiapane: GF-22 GA-21 51.16%
Dube: GF-21 GA-22 48.84%
Nordstrom: GF-9 GA-10 47.4%

So not too bad to that point, then it starts to get ugly.

Backlund: GF-25 GA-31 44.6%
Lucic: GF-25 GA-32 43.9%
Leivo: GF-10 GA-14 41.7%
Bennett: GF-17 GA-30 36.2%
Ritchie: GF-5 GA-13 27.8%

Now of course some of this is bad luck, especially guys like Backlund and Lucic who actually have good underlying numbers.

Overall our top forwards have been pretty sound defensively, issue is we haven’t been able to get them to score goals at the required clip this year to make up for the bottom 6 and lack of secondary scoring.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The bottom half of the roster rarely wins or loses games.
The league is now about your best players and if they are better on any given night than the other team's best players.
They get the most ice-time. They make the impact.

Let me expand, I'd like to see at least a couple of young forwards and a d-man making progress, that just never seems to happen as much as I'd like.

Ideally at least three forwards and a pair of d-men.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I feel like with this ownership group, if Treliving is fired it's even money that Sutter is the next GM. Not sure that's an improvement for the organization.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree with this and I agree with most of what Comix posted as well except I do not think this is a bottom 10 roster in the league. I mean it is this year but I do think we have some really good players having some really bad seasons with Tkachuk and Markstrom leading the way. It is that reasoning which is why I hesitate to blow the whole thing up and start tanking.

Tree hung on to the Monahan and Gaudreau combo for too long however and we don’t need hindsight for that. A move should have happened after the bubble last summer and Treliving decided he thought they had a better chance of bouncing back than the offers he received. Unfortunately he guesses wrong there and the assets are devalued even more

Without knowing what those offers were it is not out of the question that he guessed wrong. I think there was probably a deal to be made in the summer with CBJ around Anderson, Monahan and a goalie, and in retrospect—even seeing the outcome of the present season—I am not convinced that that was a good deal to make at the time.

I also tend to agree with you about the roster: the team is better than they have shown this year, and I will be surprised to see the Flames once again in the bottom-third next season.

[socalwingfan]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I feel like with this ownership group, if Treliving is fired it's even money that Sutter is the next GM. Not sure that's an improvement for the organization.

From Sutter’s recent interviews, he did not want the GM job originally, however took it due to the team’s finances. It really sounds like he has 0 interest in a GM role

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree with this and I agree with most of what Comix posted as well except I do not think this is a bottom 10 roster in the league. I mean it is this year but I do think we have some really good players having some really bad seasons with Tkachuk and Markstrom leading the way. It is that reasoning which is why I hesitate to blow the whole thing up and start tanking.

Tree hung on to the Monahan and Gaudreau combo for too long however and we don’t need hindsight for that. A move should have happened after the bubble last summer and Treliving decided he thought they had a better chance of bouncing back than the offers he received. Unfortunately he guesses wrong there and the assets are devalued even more

If that's the way it played out, I'd agree.

I for one, think that he looked hard at moving one or both of those players, and just couldn't find the value that he felt he needed to get it done.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So ultimately he was wrong and you could fire him, and I suppose if his coach hires stunted some players that's his fault as well, but I'm still in the camp of having the same assumptions as the GM, so I wouldn't fire him with hindsight available.

But you have a career. This Flames stuff is a hobby for you. It's Brad's lone job to get this right. If a guy serving coffee at Tim Hortons is in the same camp as you in regards to the incorrect decisions you made at your work is that not a sign to your employer that they can do better? Brad's getting paid to make more astute decisions than fans. If we fans accept mediocrity then we are getting what we deserve here.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I feel like with this ownership group, if Treliving is fired it's even money that Sutter is the next GM. Not sure that's an improvement for the organization.

At the very least, I would bet on it being another rookie GM. With the exception of Feaster, who was out of the league for a while, and Burke who was only the interim GM, it seems to be the way. I actually don't know if that is normal or not. It seems like very few GMs get recycled as compared to coaches.

I suggested Marc Hunter. He served as president and GM of the London Knights for 12 years, then as Director of Player Personnel/AGM on the Leafs for about 4 years. He apparently opted to leave after he was passed over for Dubas for the GM position and was in the running for the Seattle job. I know it's not an exciting hire, but it seems like a Flames kind of hire.

[SportsJunky]

Rhett said this morning that there was a deal that fell through last year to move Monahan to Buffalo. I feel like Treliving has been trying to trade this core but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.

Might have been Pinder that said it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Rhett said this morning that there was a deal that fell through last year to move Monahan to Buffalo. I feel like Treliving has been trying to trade this core but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.

Might have been Pinder that said it.

Pretty leaky for a GM who supposedly holds his cards close

That’s gotta be good for morale

[SportsJunky]

Yeah, he said it like it was a well known fact. I'd have to listen to it again but he said it like everyone on the show knew about it.